After they all go thin, what will the thin people do?

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Look how thin that qualifying oil is!
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This begs the question: If the engine is "designed" to run on the much thicker 20wt, how can it operate safely--even for the relatively short qualifying run--on such thin oil?
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BTW, I'm certain these are custom blended oils, but do you know if they are PAO based?
 
"So the thick oil here is essentially a 5w20, used in an +800HP flat tappet, pushrod pig-iron V8, turning over 9,500 rpm, with temperatures regular above 250 degrees."

They still use a thicker oil for racing than for qualifying. Is this done to purposefully reduce power output, or to assure that wear will not be excessive due to using the thinner oil ?

In endurance racing they use thicker oils yet, and 'production' very high output vehicles seem to use thicker oils too.

Is F1 banning the use of 'qualifying oils' ?
 
" "Then hopefully we can stop hearing about the 'holy bearing clearances', the 'vehicles are designed to use 5w20 and will be damaged if a thicker oil is used', etc., etc., as with very few exceptions, the vehicles will run fine with a thicker oil."

Sure, but can we say that with confidence?"

Yes, it's reasonable to assume that not everyone will only use 5w20 for the 'life' of all vehicles that were recommended to use it, we see evidence of that even in this forum, but I haven't run across any surveys on compliance. This can be used to turn the argument around with 'how do you know that vehicles recommended to use 5w20 have 'adequate' engine life on average, as we don't know the average compliance rate of using 5w20 ?'

Then there is warranty and product durability that the makers need to provide regardless of where vehicles are sold, areas where they also recommend heavier oils.
 
Which endurance races, and what engines, bearing and piston clearances, piston type, valve train design, oil temperatures, fuel type, any dirt ingestion issues, and do they want to tolerate extreme fuel dilution issues and keep on racing? And that's just for starters.
 
Would the Honda F20C engine in the S2000 be considered a high output engine?
2.0 liters, 240 bhp @ 8300 rpm.
Honda recommends 10W-30 or 5W-40.
Are those oils considered thick or thin?
Just asking
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quote:

Originally posted by SpitfireS:
Would the Honda F20C engine in the S2000 be considered a high output engine?
2.0 liters, 240 bhp @ 8300 rpm.
Honda recommends 10W-30 or 5W-40.
Are those oils considered thick or thin?
Just asking
smile.gif


IMHO, it depends on the engine design and the environment it's going to be run in. 5w40 may be perfect for a large diesel engine (e.g., 18-wheeler) that runs mostly continuosly once started. It may be thicker than ideal in a typical Ford modular used for commutes to work and errands.
 
My use, UOA tested and with excellent results:

Murcielago 5W-20
Maybach 5W-20
Ferrari Maranello 575 0W-20

All high RPM and 500-600 BHP

aehaas
 
"Which endurance races, and what engines, bearing and piston clearances, piston type, valve train design, oil temperatures, fuel type, any dirt ingestion issues, and do they want to tolerate extreme fuel dilution issues and keep on racing? And that's just for starters. "

Most people start with the basic tenant that thicker oils tend to produce thicker oil films, and thus less wear, and then reduce viscosity short of breaking something or excessive wear. Thta's why we see very thin oils being used for qualifying, thicker oils used in 'sprint' races, and even thicker ones in endurance races. One uses a thick enough oil to provide needed protection, regardless of whether the problem is high heat, high wear, fuel dilution, and such. Thta's why thicker oils are still used where maximum engine life is needed, and that's why thinner oils are used where improved fuel is more important than maximum engine life. Referencing Taylor again, we see that across the board thicker oils tend to produce thicker films, at the primary wear points investigated.

Only in 5w20 bizarro land do people use thinner oils in a race than when qualifying, and thinner oils in an endurance race than in a 'sprint'.


http://iantaylor.org.uk/papers/SAE2002013355.pdf

Lubrication, Tribology & Motorsport

....For most conventional European gasoline engines, the maximum rpm is around 7500 rpm, typical mid-range displacements are around 2.0 litres, with a bore-stroke ratio close to 1. The most common engine configuration would be an in-line 4 cylinder engine, often with 4 valves per cylinder.
In comparison, a Formula 1 engine has a displacement of 3 litres, with a V10 engine configuration, a bore-stroke ratio in the range 2.0-2.5, and a maximum rpm of 17000-18000 (these latter figures were reported by Wright15).

....Clearly, Table 6 shows that reductions in piston ring friction can be achieved by moving to a lower viscosity lubricant. However, this is at the expense of lower minimum oil film thicknesses. There is a trade-off between reduced friction (and greater power available to the wheels) and engine durability. In Table 6, we can see that moving from an SAE-15W/40 lubricant to an SAE 0W/20 lubricant will lead to a 30% decrease in top ring minimum oil film thickness, and will also give a decrease in top ring friction of approximately 30%. The benefits of moving to lower viscosity lubricants to obtain better fuel efficiency via lower engine friction have been well documented24-29.

Lubricant, Minimum OFT uM (Oil Film Thickness) , Average Friction Power Loss (W)

SAE-20W/50 6.89 671.5
SAE-15W/40 6.27 577.7
SAE-10W/30 5.15 425.1
SAE-0W/20 4.55 348.4

Table 8: Sensitivity of con-rod bearing results to lubricant viscosity grade at 7500 rpm

It is recognized that the model used here is too simplistic for use as a detailed design tool of bearings.

.....Lubrication in the valve train differs from that in the bearings and the piston assembly, since it is generally accepted that the valve train is in the mixed or boundary regime for most of its operating conditions. This is certainly true as far as conventional engines are concerned. Measurements of valve train friction torque frequently show that, under normal operating conditions, the valve train friction torque increases as the viscosity of the oil decreases. It is also in the valve train that friction modifier additives are thought to have the largest effect.....The boundary friction torque may be calculated by estimating the oil film thickness using elastohydrodynamic theory, and then comparing this value to the combined surface roughness of cam and follower, and assigning an effective friction coefficient. This approach has been used successfully by researchers from Shell39, Ford40 and Nissan41, and is found to give good agreement with experimental measurements... A lower viscosity lubricant will give a higher boundary friction torque, whereas the hydrodynamic friction torque will be lower. Friction modifier additives can be added to the lubricant, and these are effective at reducing the boundary friction torque.
 
quote:

Originally posted by 1sttruck:
"Which endurance races, and what engines, bearing and piston clearances, piston type, valve train design, oil temperatures, fuel type, any dirt ingestion issues, and do they want to tolerate extreme fuel dilution issues and keep on racing? And that's just for starters."

Most people start with the basic tenant that thicker oils tend to produce thicker oil films, and thus less wear, and then reduce viscosity short of breaking something or excessive wear. Thta's why we see very thin oils being used for qualifying, thicker oils used in 'sprint' races, and even thicker ones in endurance races. One uses a thick enough oil to provide needed protection, regardless of whether the problem is high heat, high wear, fuel dilution, and such. Thta's why thicker oils are still used where maximum engine life is needed, and that's why thinner oils are used where improved fuel is more important than maximum engine life. Referencing Taylor again, we see that across the board thicker oils tend to produce thicker films, at the primary wear points investigated.

Only in 5w20 bizarro land do people use thinner oils in a race than when qualifying, and thinner oils in an endurance race than in a 'sprint'.


http://iantaylor.org.uk/papers/SAE2002013355.pdf


Not having an actual answer to the questions above, we see you go back to Taylor's papers. While he does rely on the commonly known and established Tribological formulas, he makes many assumptions of the engines in question. However, assumptions aside, he does illustrate why selecting a lubricant viscosity for a street vehicle based on what race engines use, is ripe with folly, and only used by the truly ignorant.

quote:

There are clearly many differences between a conventional gasoline engine and a high performance engine. For most conventional European gasoline engines, the maximum rpm is around 7500 rpm, typical mid-range displacements are around 2.0 litres, with a bore-stroke ratio close to 1. The most common engine configuration would be an in-line 4 cylinder engine, often with 4 valves per cylinder.

In comparison, a Formula 1 engine has a displacement of 3 litres, with a V10 engine configuration, a bore-stroke ratio in the range 2.0-2.5, and a maximum rpm of 17000-18000 (these latter figures were reported by Wright-15). Table 4 shows a comparison of some of the key engine variables (based on the above figures) for a typical conventional European engine and a Formula 1 engine.

In addition we assumed a peak combustion chamber pressure of around 110 bars - the BMEP of the conventional engine was 4 bars, with a peak combustion chamber pressure of just over 30 bars, and Wright reports that the BMEP of a modern Formula 1 engine is between 13 and 14 bar. Therefore we have scaled the combustion chamber pressure accordingly.

This, and other factors, leads to an interesting result. Oil film thickness for the top piston ring of a conventional European 2.0 litre gasoline engine, at 7500 rpm, assuming fully flooded lubrication, 15w40, 1-10 microns. For the Formula 1 engine, at 18000 rpm, same conditions, .8-3.8 microns. Substantially different such that even the thick-headed mathematically challeged can see the difference.

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Although a Formula 1 engine will have a much greater engine speed than a conventional engine, the bearings will be proportionately smaller. If we simply assume that all the bearings dimensions of a Formula 1 engine are 0.8 times those of a conventional engine (although the displacement per cylinder for the Formula 1 engine is 0.3 litres, whereas that for the conventional engine we are considering is 0.5 litres, the loads in a Formula 1 engine are far greater - therefore we use 0.8 rather than 0.6), then for a given viscosity, we can estimate the power loss of a typical Formula 1 bearing by comparing with the results on a conventional bearing.

Since he has no actual design data on the engine bearings, here he guesstimates the needed values.

quote:

The simple equations above are very approximate, and should be used for identifying trends only. The expressions are not recommended for use in the design of bearings. For the detailed design of bearings, based on rigid bearing models, there are many fast, robust methods available.

In any event, he then summarizes the limitations of his bearing model anyhow.

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Unfortunately, we do not have sufficient details of a Formula 1 valve trains system to enable us to calculate the total engine friction of a Formula 1 engine.

And since he has no design details on the Formula 1 valve train, he just guesstimates using the conventional European 2.0 litre gasoline engine model.

As usual, you can't provide any real world data, so you obscure the facts by extracting only those parts of a technical paper that support your view and cloud them in a large chunks technical jargon hoping to bamboozle those not well versed on the subject or don't want to spend the time to sort through your bull.
 
quote:

My use, UOA tested and with excellent results:

Murcielago 5W-20
Maybach 5W-20
Ferrari Maranello 575 0W-20

All high RPM and 500-600 BHP

aehaas

And those cars are driven how exactly?
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quote:

Originally posted by 1sttruck:
Most people start with the basic tenant that thicker oils tend to produce thicker oil films, and thus less wear, and then reduce viscosity short of breaking something or excessive wear.

Maybe here or where civil servant lackeys armchair engineer. Real engineers understand that a sufficent oil film for the task at hand is the goal. Simulation models are fine for getting ballpark values, but years of experience and data collection during numerous developement exercises are used to further fine tune these values. These values are then validated and verified through dyno room and real world endurance testing.
 
'About 15 percent highway at 70 - 85 MPH, 80 percent city. Sometimes I drive at 30 MPH in top gear and other times I drive at 60 MPH in first gear. No matter how I drive these engines do not get hot (oil temperature).

aehaas
 
Your engines are overbuilt for your purposes. Mine have always been underbuilt (Can't speak for my current Audi as I have never driven it more than 130 mph for more than 15 minutes). Imagine how my 1.8l 95 hp VW was laboring at 200 km/h.

That you can use thin oil without detrimental effects in your engines is no proof whatsover for me that other engines can get away with thin oil just the same under the same conditions.
 
It just comes down to engine design and driving conditions. High speed driving, say in excess of 100mph would most likely call for a thicker oil. My girlfriend's VW Cabrio is pushing 3,800 rpms at 80mph. This car, I would guess, could beat up a 20wt oil pretty good. It calls for an A3 rated oil.
 
quote:

Originally posted by AEHaas:
My use, UOA tested and with excellent results:

Murcielago 5W-20
Maybach 5W-20
Ferrari Maranello 575 0W-20

All high RPM and 500-600 BHP

aehaas


What brand 5w20 are you using in the Lamborghini?
 
quote:

Originally posted by 427Z06:
For entertainment purposes, some typical NASCAR oils viscosities.

Un-restricted NASCAR Nextel Cup and Busch Series engines
50 cSt @40°C
9.1 cSt @100°C

Restrictor plate, NASCAR Nextel Cup and Busch Series engines
31 cSt @40°C
6.3 cSt @100°C

Restrictor plate NASCAR qualifying
11.5 cSt @40°C
3.8 cSt @100°C

So the thick oil here is essentially a 5w20, used in an +800HP flat tappet, pushrod pig-iron V8, turning over 9,500 rpm, with temperatures regular above 250 degrees.


I think one of the reasons for thinner qualifying oil is the oil temps are lower than in a race.
 
On the basis that race oils are ester based like RL then the HTHS is still 3.3+
 
quote:

Originally posted by MGBV8:
On the basis that race oils are ester based like RL then the HTHS is still 3.3+

There is no way a 6.3 cSt oil will have a HTHS of 3.3.
 
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