After they all go thin, what will the thin people do?

[1sttruck]

Evidently F1 engines will need to last 6 races in 2006 (unless it's been challenged), in an attempt to keep costs down. Shell seems to have developed a range of viscosities in their newer oils to address the reliability issues, which are really a 'wear budget' that they'll need to manage. It looks like they'll use a thicker oil for reduced wear, and thinner oils for higher output.


http://www.usgpindy.com/news/story.php?story_id=905

Keeping costs down is crucial to ensure the survival of the independent teams, full fields and the long-term future of Formula One. That’s the message that FIA President Max Mosley recently sent by letter to the current 10 F1 teams.

On Jan. 15, the FIA proposed a number of rule changes to cut costs and to improve F1 racing. For starters, electronic driver aids, such as traction control, will be banned midway through this season.

Between 2004 and 2006, the FIA will require the use of long-life car components, such as gearboxes. Furthermore, in 2004, only one engine may be used for each car during the entire race weekend. In 2005, the engine must last for two race weekends, and in 2006, engine life will be extended to six race weekends. The FIA also wants to eliminate the use of expensive exotic materials in any part of the car, including the engine.


http://www.cosworth.com/news_detail.php?id=25

Typical engine life increased from a maximum of 350km (pre-2004) to 650km (2004) to 1300km maximum (2005). Therefore engine life has almost quadrupled in 2 years.


http://www.f1technical.net/news/1460

Although Ferrari did not debut their new car at the season opener in Melbourne, the team together with Shell did unveil their novel new oil strategy. With a selection of engine oils from which to choose, Ferrari could now run the car with differing levels of protection and power throughout the weekend. For example, on a Friday, the team had the option of running a high-protection lubricant, switching to a thinner grade for qualifying or for the race

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

---

Originally posted by 1sttruck:
Although Ferrari did not debut their new car at the season opener in Melbourne, the team together with Shell did unveil their novel new oil strategy. With a selection of engine oils from which to choose, Ferrari could now run the car with differing levels of protection and power throughout the weekend. For example, on a Friday, the team had the option of running a high-protection lubricant, switching to a thinner grade for qualifying or for the race

---

Without knowing the viscosity of the three grades of Helix F1 oil mentioned in that article it's hard to determine the relevance to the current discussion of thick vs thin.* I would suspect, however, that all three are in the 20wt range.

*Even if we knew the viscosities I'm still not so sure how relevant it would be. I run 5w20 in my Chrysler but I don't race it in Formula 1 races.

 

[1sttruck]

"*Even if we knew the viscosities I'm still not so sure how relevant it would be. I run 5w20 in my Chrysler but I don't race it in Formula 1 races."

It'd be nice to know some of the basic properties but Shell seems to keep pretty quiet about it's lubricants for racing. It'd be interesting to see what they were using for engines expected to last one race vs lasting a weekend, and what will be used for engines expected to last six races. This is even better than the thought experiment of comparing say a high output 24 hr endurance racer racking up 3k miles vs using the same NASCAR engine for six 500 miles races; what oils be used ? It seems safe to say that with a given line of oils that making it last six races they'd be using a heavier oil in order to reduce wear, compared to what they'd use for one race. We see the same comparing qualifying vs racing.

 

[1sttruck]

"Maybe here or where civil servant lackeys armchair engineer. Real engineers understand that a sufficent oil film for the task at hand is the goal. Simulation models are fine for getting ballpark values, but years of experience and data collection during numerous developement exercises are used to further fine tune these values. These values are then validated and verified through dyno room and real world endurance testing."

Engineers the world over understand and use the basic tenant that thicker oils tend to provide thicker oil films, and thus better wear protection. Even those living in 5w20 bizzaro land use the basic tenant, and even it is obvious that they have done so and it is pointed out that they have done so they refuse to acknowledge it. The only reasons for this could be:

1. They are incapable of understanding one of the most basic tenants of engine lubrication.

2. They are liars, which would also make them hyprocrites.

3. They have a mental affliction and are thus forgiven.

NEW SHELL OIL KEY TO 053 ENGINE WEEKEND-LONG RELIABILITY
Shell and Ferrari have developed a new engine oil, Shell Helix F1SL785, for use during the 2004 season. With new regulations ensuring that reliability is a key factor to success, the new oil is set to be a key component of the new car from the outset.

‘We have been working hard with Ferrari all year to ensure that Shell Helix F1SL785 is perfectly compatible with the Formula One engine,’ said Mike Copson of Shell Global Solutions. ‘Working so closely with Ferrari, we have been able to experiment with a number of oil formulations in an extensive bench test program, but we are convinced that we have found with Shell Helix F1SL785 a great oil with which to defend our two championships.’

‘Development of Shell Helix F1SL785 began in 2003 and its design is an evolution of the oil that was used in Suzuka last October,’ explained Copson. ‘Whereas last year’s lubricant had to protect an engine for just over a race distance, Shell Helix F1SL785 is designed to protect an engine built to last all weekend.’

‘In theory, we could develop a thick viscous oil to prevent hardly any wear between the engine’s moving parts,’ continues Copson.’ The negative side of that is that a thick oil would impede the engine’s free movement, resulting in a huge power loss. Equally, thin oil would liberate power for the driver, but his engine would quickly wear as a result, possibly even ending his race with engine with power failure.’

‘Engine lubricant will always generate a certain amount of friction in the engine, but our challenge has always been to find the most efficient middle ground between weekend-long protection and minimal power loss through friction. With Shell Helix F1SL785 we are confident that we have found an excellent blend of lubricant that will protect and power the Ferrari engine,’ Copson concludes.

 

[1sttruck]

"As usual, you can't provide any real world data, so you obscure the facts by extracting only those parts of a technical paper that support your view and cloud them in a large chunks technical jargon hoping to bamboozle those not well versed on the subject or don't want to spend the time to sort through your bull."

The 'bull' merely reinforces the most basic tenant of engine lubrication, whether it's racing, gasoline engined passenger cars, or heavy duty diesels. Everywhere one looks we see the same basic principles being applied, and they're even used by the likes of you.

If you keep denying it then please at start telling people what those living in 5w20 bizzaro land actually believe, which is evidiently that thinner oils provide thicker oil films and thus more wear protection, so one should use thinner oils for racing than in qualifying, and even thinner oils for endurance races. At least it'd make you an honest.

 

[AndyH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by G-Man II:

quote:

---

Originally posted by AEHaas:
My use, UOA tested and with excellent results:

Murcielago 5W-20
Maybach 5W-20
Ferrari Maranello 575 0W-20

All high RPM and 500-600 BHP

aehaas

---

What brand 5w20 are you using in the Lamborghini?

---

He is using Redline 5W-20, IIRC.

 

[ccs2k1]

OT, but here it goes. 1sttruck, your links are quite outdated. The FIA changes the tech rules more often than they change their knickers (as my Brit friends would say). So much for "keeping costs down"; F1 engine manufacturers collectively spent about a billion Euros to change to the new engine formula this year, 2.4 l V8s required to last two races.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

---

Originally posted by 1sttruck:
Evidently F1 engines will need to last 6 races in 2006 (unless it's been challenged), in an attempt to keep costs down. Shell seems to have developed a range of viscosities in their newer oils to address the reliability issues, which are really a 'wear budget' that they'll need to manage. It looks like they'll use a thicker oil for reduced wear, and thinner oils for higher output.


http://www.usgpindy.com/news/story.php?story_id=905

Keeping costs down is crucial to ensure the survival of the independent teams, full fields and the long-term future of Formula One. That’s the message that FIA President Max Mosley recently sent by letter to the current 10 F1 teams.

On Jan. 15, the FIA proposed a number of rule changes to cut costs and to improve F1 racing. For starters, electronic driver aids, such as traction control, will be banned midway through this season.

Between 2004 and 2006, the FIA will require the use of long-life car components, such as gearboxes. Furthermore, in 2004, only one engine may be used for each car during the entire race weekend. In 2005, the engine must last for two race weekends, and in 2006, engine life will be extended to six race weekends. The FIA also wants to eliminate the use of expensive exotic materials in any part of the car, including the engine.


http://www.cosworth.com/news_detail.php?id=25

Typical engine life increased from a maximum of 350km (pre-2004) to 650km (2004) to 1300km maximum (2005). Therefore engine life has almost quadrupled in 2 years.


http://www.f1technical.net/news/1460

Although Ferrari did not debut their new car at the season opener in Melbourne, the team together with Shell did unveil their novel new oil strategy. With a selection of engine oils from which to choose, Ferrari could now run the car with differing levels of protection and power throughout the weekend. For example, on a Friday, the team had the option of running a high-protection lubricant, switching to a thinner grade for qualifying or for the race

---

What a joke.

The first two links don't mention anything about oil developement. Total speculation on your part.

And on the third link, you cherry pick as usual, leaving out this little tidbit:

Come Ferrari’s home race in Imola, the second iteration of the lubricant programme made its race debut. Shell Helix SL-0909 was used by the team to give increased protection to the engine. Imola is notoriously hard on engines and Shell designed this oil to be able to offer more protection without any significant loss of power. Michael’s phenomenal drive from 14th on the grid to P2 was a testament to its balance of protection and power.

The third generation of engine oil came to light in Barcelona. Shell Helix SL-0932 protected the engine to similar levels as its predecessor, SL-0909, but liberated significant power for the Spanish race.

So Shell is obviously trying to reduce the power loss due to lubrication system while maintaining protection. Sounds exactly like what manufacturers of street vehicles are accomplishing.

And what are the actual properties of Shell Helix SL-0909 and SL-0932? Good luck finding out.

 

[1sttruck]

"What a joke.

The first two links don't mention anything about oil developement. Total speculation on your part."

No one suggested that the first two links had anything to do with oil, they were provided for background. As someone else noted one of them was an older link, as it appears that they aren't using the 6 race rule for engines.

What's the matter with you ? Do your meds need adjusting or something ?

 

[1sttruck]

"And on the third link, you cherry pick as usual,...."

There is nothing to cherry pick as no properties are mentioned in the comments that you noted, so again we see the fumbling hyprocrite in action. You try to suggest that someone was speculating but in fact there is no need for speculation when the reference specifically notes the properties that you have such a hard time understanding; that thicker oils tend to provide thicker oil films, and thus more wear protection. This is simple stuff about one of the most basic and important tenants in lubrication, and you repeatedly demonstrate that you don't understand it and won't acknowledge it. Just acknowledge it and I'll stop harrasing you about the topic, otherwise you just continue to look plain silly as we're left with the impression that you think otherwise.

"...Ferrari could now run the car with differing levels of protection and power throughout the weekend. For example, on a Friday, the team had the option of running a high-protection lubricant, switching to a thinner grade for qualifying or for the race.."

 

[1sttruck]

It seems that some internet hack has infected Ferrari, Shell, well, the pretty much most of the world with the evil belief that thicker oils tend to provide thicker oil films, and thus more wear protection. Note that no speculation is involved in the statement ".. thicker more viscous oil which gives a greater degree of protection..":


http://www.manipef1.com/news/2005/index.php?id=252

16 March, 2005
Malaysia: Ferrari preview

While the opening round of the season in Melbourne provided an immediate example of the effect of the new F1 sporting regulations, throwing up an unusual grid through the combination of rain and the new qualifying format, the second round in Sepang is expected to highlight the effect of the most important new technical rule that obliges the drivers to use the same engine for two races.

....In fact, oil, generally a "forgotten" component in the mind of race fans, now plays an even more important role than usual. “Before qualifying and the race oil specification cannot be changed,” states Binotto. “However, for Friday's practice where times do not count, we can use a thicker more viscous oil which gives a greater degree of protection to the major components as the engines are not pushed hard on the first day. Having to last two races, we obviously don't look for maximum performance on the Friday.”

 

[MGBV8]

Under aviation

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=000048