After they all go thin, what will the thin people do?

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quote:

Originally posted by 1sttruck:
"1sttruck, why don't you show us your MFT calculations for both 5w20 and 5w50 in those few thousand Ford specialty engines. Include all lubrication dependent areas, and make sure you factor in such things as surface finish Ra values and piston expansion rates."

None of that matters now. All that matters is that you are unable to acknowledge that you, like the rest of the world, instinctively uses the tenant of 'thicker oil provides better protection', but when called on it you just start up the smokescreen.


Here's where you're unable to acknowledge that real engine designers/developers understand such things as MFT. And they also understand that too little is not good, just as too much is a waste and creates other problems.

Do yourself a favor and take a trip someplace where real engineers do engine developement and get a tour of one the dyno facilities. Talk to the engineers there. You just might be awakened to the fact that they actually know what they're doing and they don't have to rely on INTERNET oil experts.

By the way, I'm still waiting for your MFT calculations on those Ford specialty engines.
 
"Engines can be designed to run a wide variety of viscosities. Manufacturers consider other parameters besides viscosity when designing an engine such as current formulation technologies, cost and availability of current formulations, and user habits and beliefs. Ford only specs thicker oils in extremely low volume production specialty vehicles that are essentially aftermarket built engines that have taken the original design way past it's original design and development parameters. In short, the thick oil is a patch for a few thousand vehicles that won't see the usual validation/verification process."

Surely it doesn't matter what the power output is, as we constantly hear that 20 weight oils are using in high performance vehicles and racing, we constantly hear that 'viscosity doesn't matter' when it comes to wear protection, and that only neanderthals practicing pseudo-science think that there is any correlation between viscosity and wear protection. Surely Ford would use 5w20 Motorcraft in all of it's high performance vehicles, as it provides such superior wear protection in all circumstances, right ? But evidently the Dark Lord Delvac has poisoned the minds of fair thinking lads in the land of Dearborn, as they too continue to believe that that there is a correlation between viscosity and wear protection, and recommend 5w50. Note that we're not talking about 5w30, or 10w40, instead it's 5w50.

5w50 is a bit thicker than 5w20, don't you think ?
 
"Extended drain intervals require low volatility, resistance to oxidation and deposit formation, etc. (Motivation for Ford WSS-M2C930-A spec). It's easier and less expensive to produce a "thick" oil that meets all the above parameters, especially in the case of non full synthetics. Contrary to BITGOG members, the vast majority of people will buy the least expensive oil recommended for their engine."

We aren't talking about 'most people in the US', who do seem to prefer cheap oils by a large margin, we're talking about places like Europe, where more expensive oils are more common. Thinner oils typically do not have adequate margin with respect to wear protection, so they're not commonly used in these applciations.
 
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both "horsemen" seem like pretty decent guys

They're riding pretty dang tall horses. You just see how that's going to end.
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If "going thin" is some kind of fashion statement or a hype it will probably not last.
I think the thinner oils are here to stay because I think all the manuacturers listed above would not follow fashion statements or hypes when it comes to their engines.
Currently using 0W-40, and after reading this topic I'm thinking.. why didnt I go for the 0W-30.
Why didn't I "go thin"?
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Honda Manual specs 10W-30 or 5W-40.

Should I stand aside now and let the horses pass?
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"Even when I left you the opportunity to discover your false conclusions drawn from Taylor's diesel wear model, you failed to either notice it, or you ignored it."

I'm not sure which thread you're referring to but I thought you'd want to avoid bringing any of them up again. Looking at one thread below we find that Ford appears to think that the article does have something to do with their modular engines and have taken it to heart, as they've been recommending 15W50 to 5w50 oils in some of them. As mentioned again and again we're talking about a very basic principle in lubrication, one that you use when you're not aware of it, which as Taylor summarizes below is; "..in general higher viscoisty oils give thicker films."

Since you seem to be unable to acknowledge the basic principle even though you use it, we're left with trying to decide if you're lying, unable to comrehend it, or perhaps suffering from a mental affliction of some sort.


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http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=014267;p=6

"Originally posted by 1sttruck:

.... http://www.iantaylor.org.uk/papers/piston2005.pdf

Oil film thickness measurements - in general higher viscosity oils give thicker films. However, top ring film thickness could be thicker for lower viscosity oils.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Referring to that paper we find they instrumented a single cylinder CAT-1Y73 Diesel engine with:

5.1" Bore
6.5" Stroke
10.8" Connecting Rod
Operating speed of 1000-1800 rpms.
Torque 15-140 foot pounds

Measurements taken at 1000 rpm and 53 foot pounds and fixed temperatures.

How you compare the results from that to a Ford modular gasoline engine operating under a wide variety of real world conditions is beyond me.

And if in that paper they recorded the lowest wear results with SAE 50, why aren't you on the diesel threads persuading people that Xw-40 is just way to thin for diesel engines? "
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"Even when I left you the opportunity to discover your false conclusions drawn from Taylor's diesel wear model, you failed to either notice it, or you ignored it."

I'm not sure which thread you're referring to but I thought you'd want to avoid bringing any of them up again. Looking at another thread below we find that you seem proud to proclaim that a heavy duty diesel engine 'only' has an additional 0.006 in of wear over 20% of the cylinder liner in 600k miles when using 10w30. It actually appears to be around 1/3rd of the liner, in any case you don't seem to have any comprehension of what that means. You might have thought that 600k miles is a lot, it's not, or that 0.006in is a little, but again it's not. When any engine, diesels specifically, looses the surface finish on the cylinder liner they're considered 'bore polished' and are typically considered worn out, especially if it's 1/3 of the liner. I don't know what the surface finish is supposed to be on a new or broken in engine, but I'll guess Ra values (often only one of several finish parameters) of less than 60 uin (microinches). A microinch is one millionth of an inch, which is a lot less than 0.001 in, obviously with additional wear of 0.001 per 100k miles we'll bore polish the engine in very short order, like after 100k miles. This is why 10w30 isn't used except in cold weather conditions, as it doesn't provide enough wear protection. In fact in a lot of (most ?) high load situations we find heavier oils being used.

Taylor states in his article that is summarizes 15 years of work at Shell, where the models are being used for a wide range of engines. Again, Ford evidently took it to heart as they too use heavier oils where wear is a concern, even in their high output modular engines.


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"Further, and just as important, limits are set for such testing. Just because you can measure wear differences, doesn't automatically imply they are significant enough to effect the life of the engine. Engines parts are going to

wear out or suffer corrosion wear eventually. Entropy insures you're not going to see zero wear.

Referring to Taylor's paper http://www.iantaylor.org.uk/papers/friction.pdf,

in a 10-Litre Diesel engine @ 2100 rpm , in others words "flat-out" like 6500rpms in ekpolk's 3.5L nissan, he simulates, not measures an additional .0000006"/hr wear depth on %20 of the bore length between a 10w30 and

20w50. The rest of the bore wear is identical.

So what can we conclude from that? If you drive a Big Rig like 10-Litre Diesel engine flat out (note I use flat out, since he gives no loading data) using 10w30 instead of a 20w50 for 10,000hrs, it's predicted you'll have an

additional .006" additional bore wear depth on %20 percent of the cylinder bore length.

Do you think that's an illuminating result for a 10-Litre Diesel engine, at that RPM, for that length of time? 10,000hrs. x 60 mph = 600,000 miles.

I rest my case."
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"First of all, how do you know they aren't running "0-weight" oils for 500 mile races?"

Like in many replies I used your references and your statements to make my case. You stated that a light oil is used for qualifying and a heavier oil is used for the race. Even if you were lying or now wish to claim insanity, you still used the basic tenant of 'thicker oils tend to provide better wear protection' when making that statement. This is a basic principle, and if you're unable to acknowledge it even though you invoke it we're left to believe that either you're lying, unable to comprehend it, or ar suffering from some sort of mental affliction.

This is simple stuff. Pretty much everyone reading this knows why they use a lighter oil for qualifying and a heavier oil for racing. Acknowledge it and I'll stop driving the point home.
 
1sttruck ..hmm ..just let me ask you to consider this. Suppose the lighter oil would work fine for the full duration of the race. No additional wear ..no this or that ..but it cannot sustain the fuel dilution and provide the proper protection over that duration?? That is, that the "protection" end of the equation is totally balanced and there isn't a care in the world ..but the durability and resilence to insult require compensatory buffers, in this case viscosity to offset operational/process variables.

It this case the viscosity factor is not providing one bit of lubrication added protection ..by itself.

If you see what I mean
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quote:

Originally posted by 1sttruck:
"Even when I left you the opportunity to discover your false conclusions drawn from Taylor's diesel wear model, you failed to either notice it, or you ignored it."

I'm not sure which thread you're referring to but I thought you'd want to avoid bringing any of them up again. Looking at one thread below we find that Ford appears to think that the article does have something to do with their modular engines and have taken it to heart, as they've been recommending 15W50 to 5w50 oils in some of them. As mentioned again and again we're talking about a very basic principle in lubrication, one that you use when you're not aware of it, which as Taylor summarizes below is; "..in general higher viscoisty oils give thicker films."

Since you seem to be unable to acknowledge the basic principle even though you use it, we're left with trying to decide if you're lying, unable to comrehend it, or perhaps suffering from a mental affliction of some sort.


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http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=014267;p=6

"Originally posted by 1sttruck:

.... http://www.iantaylor.org.uk/papers/piston2005.pdf

Oil film thickness measurements - in general higher viscosity oils give thicker films. However, top ring film thickness could be thicker for lower viscosity oils.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Referring to that paper we find they instrumented a single cylinder CAT-1Y73 Diesel engine with:

5.1" Bore
6.5" Stroke
10.8" Connecting Rod
Operating speed of 1000-1800 rpms.
Torque 15-140 foot pounds

Measurements taken at 1000 rpm and 53 foot pounds and fixed temperatures.

How you compare the results from that to a Ford modular gasoline engine operating under a wide variety of real world conditions is beyond me.

And if in that paper they recorded the lowest wear results with SAE 50, why aren't you on the diesel threads persuading people that Xw-40 is just way to thin for diesel engines? "
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I've answered all these already but like an idiot savant, you keep referring to them.

The Ford engines you reference are a few thousand specialty engines built with aftermarket parts. If you don't understand the implications of this, you need to do more research.

That CAT-1Y73 Diesel engine first of all is a large DIESEL engine. Combustion chamber conditions are different from a gasoline engine. Also note the weight difference of the rotating assemblies. Finally diesels put out max power at a significantly lower RPMs. Now look at the Sommerfeld Number variables. Do you see the light yet?

Finally, as far as that additional .006" additional bore wear depth on %20 of the cylinder bore length using 10w30 instead of a 20w50, I guess you forgot to notice that both 10w30 and the 20w50 will end up with .067-.03" of bore wear depth from TDC to .4" down the bore.

In short, that .006" additional bore wear depth is meaningless compared to the rest of the cylinder wear. But this is typical of your blinder assisted analysis. You hone on to the differences without apparently realizing that they're insignificant differences.

Rusty Wallace: "I mean I've got to tell you, when I walk into the dyno room and I see my engine on the dyno turning 9800 to 10,000 rpms, right now we're working some engines that turn over 10,000, and we've got 0-weight oil in there, and I'm just sitting there watching this thing screaming on what we call the terminator, which is a dyno which we can actually run 500-mile races on it. You'll hear the engine shifting on the dyno, you'll hear it run 5 hours. And I'll ask the guy, I'll say, ''What oil we got in here?'' Well, there's four or five different blends we might play with and help experiment with Mobil with, and he says, ''Oh, that's the 0.5 weight stuff.'' I'm like, oh my gosh, and it's just going crazy. Headers are glowing red. You take the engine apart, and the bearings look brand new. So it is absolutely a myth that you have to run 50-weight oil in these cars nowadays."

That's it. I'm done. Now you can go ahead a repeat yourself a half a dozen more times.

P.S. I'll let Tom Cruise know if they decide to make a sequel to Rainman, we have the perfect candidate here on BITOG to play his brother. Just look up 1sttruck.
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"1sttruck ..hmm ..just let me ask you to consider this. Suppose the lighter oil would work fine for the full duration of the race. No additional wear ..no this or that ..but it cannot sustain the fuel dilution and provide the proper protection over that duration?? That is, that the "protection" end of the equation is totally balanced and there isn't a care in the world ..but the durability and resilence to insult require compensatory buffers, in this case viscosity to offset operational/process variables."

A light qualifying oil that provides as much wear protection as a heavier oil, but only when used as a qualifying oil, since when it's used as a racing oil it doesn't provide the needed wear protection exhibited by a heavier, regular racing oil. That sounds ok, and I guess it's why they're considered qualifying oils. Here's a link from a UPS site for their car:

http://www.racing.ups.com/racing/news_results/articles/tech_talk/tech_20040703_20040629.html

Question: Testing
Answers Provided by: Marc Hayes, #88 Engine Specialist

Question: When testing the different engine packages (restricted, unrestricted, and qualifying) how much difference does the weight of the oil make in terms of horsepower, temperature, and overall performance?

ANSWER: It makes a big difference. We run different oil in open races than we do in restrictor plate races, and we run different oil in qualifying than we do in the race. So as you can imagine we have a lot of oil around here. Generally speaking, we run very thin oil for qualifying. Thin oil does not have as much protection for the internal parts as thicker race oils have, but is very low in friction so it makes a lot of hp. The race oil is a little thicker or heavier, but it has a lot of anti wear additives in it to protect the engine during the race. Fortunately for us we have Shell as a sponsor and partner in the oil business, so as we see different wear patterns developing in the engine, we can lean on them for guidance in creating products and solutions to help, and over time those innovations make there way into their mainstream products available to the public. Without their support it would be tough, as engine oil is so critical to our overall performance.
 
"The Ford engines you reference are a few thousand specialty engines built with aftermarket parts. If you don't understand the implications of this, you need to do more research."

On one point it doesn't matter if there was only one engine, as you're the one that invoked the principle of 'thicker oils tends to provide better wear than thinner oils" when discussing the engine. No one instinctively says 'there appears to be a possible wear problem in this high performance engine, so let's fix it with a lighter oil', not even you when your 5w20 demon is evidently asleep.

On another point Ford is in good company as it appears that most (?) very high performance vehicles use fairly heavy oils, regardless of whether the parts are 'in house' or 'out house'. The engines have to last longer than a race or a weekend if they're used hard.
 
quote:

Originally posted by 1sttruck:
Question: Testing
Answers Provided by: Marc Hayes, #88 Engine Specialist

Question: When testing the different engine packages (restricted, unrestricted, and qualifying) how much difference does the weight of the oil make in terms of horsepower, temperature, and overall performance?

ANSWER: ...Generally speaking, we run very thin oil for qualifying. Thin oil does not have as much protection for the internal parts as thicker race oils have, but is very low in friction so it makes a lot of hp. The race oil is a little thicker or heavier, but it has a lot of anti wear additives in it to protect the engine during the race....


Notice he said the thicker oil still needs a "lot of anti wear additives in it to protect the engine during the race". Notice he didn't say the thinner oil had the same amount of additives as the thicker oil, he just said it was lower friction.So you can infer anything you want from that, but your inference won't necessarily lead to the correct conclusion.

And I guess it never occurred to you that the thicker oil(SAE10-SAE30) is used in case of an extreme over-temp event or if they loose a cylinder during a race, where they can't stop the car to cool the engine down or change the oil because of severe fuel dilution.

In any event, using these racing engines to prove your point just further illustrates your lack of knowledge about engines and lubrication. These are stock block pushrod original engine designs full of aftermarket parts turning 9K plus RPMs, making 450-800hp. Totally unrelated to what the %99.9999 of what street engine vehicles will ever see.

Real engineers know you need a sufficient MFT for the particular engine part in question and it's environment, and that's going involve compromises. And with %90+ of street engine vehicle wear coming from startup events, thick-headed thick oil dimwits look even sillier when they try to stress the "protection advantage" of overly thick oils.

And if you still want to obsess over those few thousand Ford specialty engines, why don't you give John Coletti a call. He might be willing to tell you why after utilizing aftermarket bearings, pistons, rings, crankshaft, connecting rods, and changed the clearances, surface finishes, cylinder heads, and adding a aftermarket supercharger to make +450hp, they decided to use thicker oil in a engine originally designed to make 200-300hp.
 
Well, I can cipher and do research like our two esteemed pannelists here ...so I gotta go with the "proof of the pudding is in the eating" method of figuring stuff out.

If I see a mass of retiring 2002+ domestic autos that are hitting the junkyard due to engine seizure ..or just plain worn out engines ..hmmm..from about 2005 on out ..then it would be proof enough for me that there is not enough protection afforded with the use of lighter weight oils.

Just like HAL said "put it in service and let it fail".


I'll save the heavy weight stuff for my jeep tractor engines.
 
Yes, but only after they suggested that he was bee-essing them. He was real sensitive to criticism.
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"If I see a mass of retiring 2002+ domestic autos that are hitting the junkyard due to engine seizure ..or just plain worn out engines ..hmmm..from about 2005 on out ..then it would be proof enough for me that there is not enough protection afforded with the use of lighter weight oils."

Others may have made such a statement, but I haven't. Instead, I'm merely applying a very basic tenant, supported by articles that others have provided in their attept to prove otherwise, and articles that I have presented; thicker oils tend to provide thicker oil films, which tends to produce less wear.

This is simple stuff, and so instinctive that even 5w20 cult members unknowingly use it, as we've seen. The result of that basic tenant is that if you look beyond CAFE recommendations, look at recommendations made by makers of the same vehicles used in the US, you'll often see thicker oils being used, or pre-CAFE and outside of the US, a range of oils being suggested. Simple, common sense recommendations made using some basic principles.

For maximum fuel economy or power, use however light of an oil that you wish. The maker's recommendations work fine for almost everyone. Use the same oils for adequate engine life, which will be greater than most people have a desire for.

For maximum engine life look at recommendations made where there is no CAFE pressure or emphasis on fuel economy, or look at usage where maximum engine life is the most important parameter. Use the basic tenant 'that is used but not acknowledged by 5w20 cult members'.

You're evidently satisfied with whatever you end up with, but I'm not, especially when the recommendations were made by others who did not have my criteria in mind when considering passenger cars. But, they apparently did with my truck :^)
 
quote:

Others may have made such a statement, but I haven't. Instead, I'm merely applying a very basic tenant, supported by articles that others have provided in their attept to prove otherwise, and articles that I have presented; thicker oils tend to provide thicker oil films, which tends to produce less wear.

Well, let us, for the moment, take this as canon in our story of lubrication. We'll accept "tends".

quote:

The result of that basic tenant is that if you look beyond CAFE recommendations, look at recommendations made by makers of the same vehicles used in the US, you'll often see thicker oils being used, or pre-CAFE and outside of the US, a range of oils being suggested.

I see nothing that convinces me that your reason for this is due to thicker is better. I'm sorry, but for US cars exported ..there is one thing that is probably as rare as they are ..it's the oil that they're spec'd with. It's the same with trying to find refrigerated breakfast drinks in Europe ..they just don't exist there. For all I know the main export use of F250 or Chevy Suburbans is to Saudi Arabia where the typical service duty includes 100mph+ sustained driving in 125+ ambient temp. That is, conditions that will reduce the alleged thicker viscosities to the effective visc of our thinner stocks under normal conditions. So the "thicker films" is just a play on words in that situation. They're only thicker under normal conditions. If you're going outside the normal confines of operations, then you're surely going to compensate. This is just a matter of indexing and hardly a center pillar to construct a platform of belief around. You're doing a more masterful and well thought version of build a dinasaur's head from a pig's tooth. You do not know if US cars in foreign lands experience less wear then they do in the US. The snap shot of this one aspect can lead to incorrect conclusions. I believe that you've addressed this before ..but I don't see any concesion that you don't have any bona fide knowledge as to why this occurs ...just your implications of apparent differences. Surely there can be a vast number of other reasons. Laws that function in one area ..seem totally unneeded when you cross a state line. Remedies that are necessary for one segment of a society are ineffective to another. I say our "habits" evolved these remedies. In other countries their habits may not lead to this evolution ..nor may it be effective there.
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But all that being said ..I will use as light a weight oil as possible to fit my service needs. In many instances it will be a 5w-20. In my jeeps, since I have good cause to believe that they are best served with heavier oils, I'll use heavier oils.
 
quote:

It's the same with trying to find refrigerated breakfast drinks in Europe ..they just don't exist there.

- Alosan
- Biotta Fit
- Ayran yogurt drinks
- Actimel und Activia by Danone (Euro-Dannon!)

are just a few that come to mind.
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Don't spoil the point with the truth of the matter!!!! Breakfast means a whole different thing to Europeans. If you find the line for the "American Buffet" ..you'll survive on something other then a bland pastry.
 
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