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Yep ...it's ...what's her name
Paris Hilton syndrome. Thin is in.
After they all go thin, what will the thin people do?
- Thread starter AEHaas
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This whole thick vs. thin takes windp1ssing to an amazing level...even for BITOG.
The only useful measurement of an oil's effectiveness is the horsepower, torque, emmissions output, and fuel economy of an engine after x miles/years of use. Not UOA. Not micrometer readings of how much wear has taken place. Not visual inspections through the oil filler cap. The only question that matters is whether the engine keeps operating within acceptable parameters as long as you need it to.
I am confident that the durability testing done by Ford/Honda etc has shown that using the thinner oils will not have a negative impact on achieving this basic goal, or they wouldn't have made the change.
If I wasn't confident, I wouldn't buy their products...it's as simple as that. Instead of pondering conspiracy theories or comparing oil viscosity recommendations across vehicle models, applications, or geographical regions...how about just asking yourself whether you trust the people who designed and built this box you're flying down the highway in. If you think they're trying to short-change you somehow by recommending an inferior oil, why on earth would you buy a car from them. It's all so silly really.
The only useful measurement of an oil's effectiveness is the horsepower, torque, emmissions output, and fuel economy of an engine after x miles/years of use. Not UOA. Not micrometer readings of how much wear has taken place. Not visual inspections through the oil filler cap. The only question that matters is whether the engine keeps operating within acceptable parameters as long as you need it to.
I am confident that the durability testing done by Ford/Honda etc has shown that using the thinner oils will not have a negative impact on achieving this basic goal, or they wouldn't have made the change.
If I wasn't confident, I wouldn't buy their products...it's as simple as that. Instead of pondering conspiracy theories or comparing oil viscosity recommendations across vehicle models, applications, or geographical regions...how about just asking yourself whether you trust the people who designed and built this box you're flying down the highway in. If you think they're trying to short-change you somehow by recommending an inferior oil, why on earth would you buy a car from them. It's all so silly really.
Truly amazing to hear all the rants, raves, learned opinions, and ******* opinions. I could be wrong, but I think that the starter of this thread, AEHaas, simply wanted to know (perhaps rhetorically) what the people who are arguing for thin oil would do once it was uninversal. Would they be glad they were successful, or would they be lobbying for even thinner oil? I could be wrong, but I think the devolvement of the discussion down to the heavy vs thin debate is not what he was talking about. Let's face it, this debate is like beating a dead horse. I've seen such an emoticon on other boards, but there isn't one here. I'd love to post it, to put an exclamtion point on this "done to death" debate about thin vs thick.
Has anyone seen the news today regarding new CAFE requirements that will be taking effect for SUV's and light trucks I believe effective 2007? I predict we'll be seeing a whole lot more vehicles (specifically SUV's and light trucks) spec'd for 5w20 in the very near future. For some reason, I doubt Nissan will back-spec my wife's '88 pickup from the 10w30-10w40 recommended now to a 5w20. And my Maxima will stick with thicker 30 weights because thinner 30's make the engine too loud. Even though for my Maxima in Europe Nissan allows a 5w20 EXCEPT it is not suitable for sustained high speed driving.
Some vehicles may run perfectly fine on a 5w20. Others may not. I for one see the logic behind a thicker oil providing more protection as long as it is appropriate for cold pumpability.
Someone above posted that since most wear occurs at cold startup, that a 5w20 would protect better than a 5w30. Aren't they extremely close in viscosity at basically ambient temps (and the same at -20*C)? My concern then would be for a thicker oil once warmed up, which is why GC could be so popular because it is thicker than most 30 weights at operating temps. My VQ loves GC compared to a thin Mobil 1 5w30.
Also, that Bergin guy said something about cars nowadays are started in colder temperatures. I thought we had global warming? Cars today are started in the same temps they were 40 years ago. The earth has not gotten colder. So what is he talking about? Sounds like someone is trying to pull some wool over my eyes on that one. Makes me wonder....
Dave
Some vehicles may run perfectly fine on a 5w20. Others may not. I for one see the logic behind a thicker oil providing more protection as long as it is appropriate for cold pumpability.
Someone above posted that since most wear occurs at cold startup, that a 5w20 would protect better than a 5w30. Aren't they extremely close in viscosity at basically ambient temps (and the same at -20*C)? My concern then would be for a thicker oil once warmed up, which is why GC could be so popular because it is thicker than most 30 weights at operating temps. My VQ loves GC compared to a thin Mobil 1 5w30.
Also, that Bergin guy said something about cars nowadays are started in colder temperatures. I thought we had global warming? Cars today are started in the same temps they were 40 years ago. The earth has not gotten colder. So what is he talking about? Sounds like someone is trying to pull some wool over my eyes on that one. Makes me wonder....
Dave
How's this rainman:
What he's talking about is the fact that today's cars with computer controled fuel injection will start at low temps that cars 40 or 50 years ago would not--at least not without some help, like ether sprayed into the carburetor.
Just about any car sold today can cold soak overnight at -20F and you can jump in it, turn the key, and the engine will start right up. That would've never happened 40 or 50 years ago. All the cranking and half starts you'd do back then would get the oil circulating so that once the engine finally did fire up, the entire oil system was primed.
Has anyone seen the news today regarding new CAFE requirements that will be taking effect for SUV's and light trucks I believe effective 2007? I predict we'll be seeing a whole lot more vehicles (specifically SUV's and light trucks) spec'd for 5w20 in the very near future. For some reason, I doubt Nissan will back-spec my wife's '88 pickup from the 10w30-10w40 recommended now to a 5w20. And my Maxima will stick with thicker 30 weights because thinner 30's make the engine too loud. Even though for my Maxima in Europe Nissan allows a 5w20 EXCEPT it is not suitable for sustained high speed driving.
Some vehicles may run perfectly fine on a 5w20. Others may not. I for one see the logic behind a thicker oil providing more protection as long as it is appropriate for cold pumpability.
Someone above posted that since most wear occurs at cold startup, that a 5w20 would protect better than a 5w30. Aren't they extremely close in viscosity at basically ambient temps (and the same at -20*C)? My concern then would be for a thicker oil once warmed up, which is why GC could be so popular because it is thicker than most 30 weights at operating temps. My VQ loves GC compared to a thin Mobil 1 5w30.
Also, that Bergin guy said something about cars nowadays are started in colder temperatures. I thought we had global warming? Cars today are started in the same temps they were 40 years ago (atleast ym understanding). The earth has not gotten colder. So what is he talking about? Sounds like someone is trying to pull some wool over my eyes on that one. Makes me wonder....
Dave
Some vehicles may run perfectly fine on a 5w20. Others may not. I for one see the logic behind a thicker oil providing more protection as long as it is appropriate for cold pumpability.
Someone above posted that since most wear occurs at cold startup, that a 5w20 would protect better than a 5w30. Aren't they extremely close in viscosity at basically ambient temps (and the same at -20*C)? My concern then would be for a thicker oil once warmed up, which is why GC could be so popular because it is thicker than most 30 weights at operating temps. My VQ loves GC compared to a thin Mobil 1 5w30.
Also, that Bergin guy said something about cars nowadays are started in colder temperatures. I thought we had global warming? Cars today are started in the same temps they were 40 years ago (atleast ym understanding). The earth has not gotten colder. So what is he talking about? Sounds like someone is trying to pull some wool over my eyes on that one. Makes me wonder....
Dave
Ummmm, but didn't HAL say that because he wanted to kill Dave?
fwiw, I'm a little late coming on-board the 5w-20 train...but I had a long way to come from my Euro-oils. YES, I am using 5w-20 in my lil Honda-thing right now. However, if I had a somewhat larger vehicle that the engine was signifigantly stressed and/or a hotter climate, I might be a bit more apprensive.
That said, I am using 5w-20 but that's just temporary, thankfully I can put off a final decision because I have a large stash of synth 5w-30 and 0w-30 that is acceptable due to it's quality, not just it's viscosity. I would not use dino 5w-30, 5w-20 would be the way to go. I would not purchase synth for a 5w-20 car either, dino 5w-20 is just too cost/effective.
I know my musings are a lil out of place in a technical discussion. I have been around here a long time, long enough to see the swing from thick to thin and I've changed my oil preference based on new technology and my understanding of the subject. Again, staying ahead of the "oil curve" verses the Guy on the Street.
That said, I am using 5w-20 but that's just temporary, thankfully I can put off a final decision because I have a large stash of synth 5w-30 and 0w-30 that is acceptable due to it's quality, not just it's viscosity. I would not use dino 5w-30, 5w-20 would be the way to go. I would not purchase synth for a 5w-20 car either, dino 5w-20 is just too cost/effective.
I know my musings are a lil out of place in a technical discussion. I have been around here a long time, long enough to see the swing from thick to thin and I've changed my oil preference based on new technology and my understanding of the subject. Again, staying ahead of the "oil curve" verses the Guy on the Street.
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Indeed. Some here must be too young to recall having a perfectly tuned car with a perfectly functioning choke catching ignition ..and then stalling after about 5 or 10 seconds of running. On the third attempt you may have been able to sustain the high idle that they required. That was one of my first noted benefits of the original M1. I could start without stalling in extreme cold.
How true. I was talking cars with my stepdad (75 years old) one time. He got this wistful look in his eyes and said "I'm just amazed how they start every time nowadays".
I remember him having this *** Volare unmarked police car that required all kinds of arcane rituals to get going once the temperature dropped below 50F!
I remember him having this *** Volare unmarked police car that required all kinds of arcane rituals to get going once the temperature dropped below 50F!
Yup. They don't build cars like they used to, and that's a GOOD thing! I have owned/driven a wide variety of vehicles over the past 35 years in a cold climate. The ONLY engines that I have had that would reliably start at below zero temps have been Volkswagen Bugs. And I still say that the new EFI engines are very slightly better, but not by very much. Those old VW's are amazing, but you had best keep it tuned up or it won't start, and the new cars hardly even require ANY maintenance except for oil changes and air filters. My 98 Isuzu trooper has almost 100K on the original spark plugs and still runs/starts fun, gas mileage hasn't changed and power is still normal. Try THAT with an air-cooled Volkswagen.
I am slowly coming around to the "thinner oil" school of thought, but old habits die hard. Reckon when I see Caterpillar and Cummins recommending 0W-20 oil for their engines in hot climates I will become a true believer.
Joe
I am slowly coming around to the "thinner oil" school of thought, but old habits die hard. Reckon when I see Caterpillar and Cummins recommending 0W-20 oil for their engines in hot climates I will become a true believer.
Joe
"The only useful measurement of an oil's effectiveness is the horsepower, torque, emmissions output, and fuel economy of an engine after x miles/years of use. Not UOA. Not micrometer readings of how much wear has taken place. Not visual inspections through the oil filler cap. The only question that matters is whether the engine keeps operating within acceptable parameters as long as you need it to."
It will continue to do so provided the parts don't break, and the parts retain their crticial dimensions. The parts will retain their critical dimensions for as long as possible if the wear is minimized.
"I am confident that the durability testing done by Ford/Honda etc has shown that using the thinner oils will not have a negative impact on achieving this basic goal, or they wouldn't have made the change. "
Both have stated that thinner oils are being used for better fuel economy, not maximum engine life. For most people, evidently yourself, that's good enough. I haven't seen any Honda TSBs, but the Ford TSB on oil recommendations makes it obvious that they have not done comprehensive testing, and that they do not have owner's interest in mind, as they recommend 5w20 for a long list of vehicles, current when the TSB was written, and older models, regardless of mileage or engine conditon. Ford recommendations may result in plugged catalytic converter, fouled sensors, etc., by using 5w20 even in vehicles that would exhibit dramatic oil consumption. Even the lube industry doesn't know how to deal with this as Ford has not released any guidelines on the matter.
It will continue to do so provided the parts don't break, and the parts retain their crticial dimensions. The parts will retain their critical dimensions for as long as possible if the wear is minimized.
"I am confident that the durability testing done by Ford/Honda etc has shown that using the thinner oils will not have a negative impact on achieving this basic goal, or they wouldn't have made the change. "
Both have stated that thinner oils are being used for better fuel economy, not maximum engine life. For most people, evidently yourself, that's good enough. I haven't seen any Honda TSBs, but the Ford TSB on oil recommendations makes it obvious that they have not done comprehensive testing, and that they do not have owner's interest in mind, as they recommend 5w20 for a long list of vehicles, current when the TSB was written, and older models, regardless of mileage or engine conditon. Ford recommendations may result in plugged catalytic converter, fouled sensors, etc., by using 5w20 even in vehicles that would exhibit dramatic oil consumption. Even the lube industry doesn't know how to deal with this as Ford has not released any guidelines on the matter.
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Not only are they close at ambient temps ..they are close at most temps. The part that most people miss is that 20 weight oils are just below the 30 weight surface. The reaction to "20 weight" is way out of whack with where it sits in actual viscosity difference from a "30 weight". People who wouldn't think twice of using a thinner 30 weight ..never looking at where it sits within the 30 weight visc range, are scared chitless to "cross the border" ..even though they're just on the other side. How does this make any sense
What's the difference between a Canadian and a citizen of the United States? About 5 miles in some cases.
I missed the oportunity to say that there are plenty of cars that do not offer heavier oils in foreign nations ..or rather, do not "go light" when operated in the USA. These are mostly Euro-alloy. We can see, however, that Dr. Haas is even attempting to challenge that tenet by putting his fine stable of ultra exotic vehicles where his mouth is. I think that he'll prove that this can work too
“ "I am confident that the durability testing done by Ford/Honda etc has shown that using the thinner oils will not have a negative impact on achieving this basic goal, or they wouldn't have made the change. " “
“Both have stated that thinner oils are being used for better fuel economy, not maximum engine life.”
Personally I use Red Line because it has a low pour point and therefore thickens less after engine shut down. At start up, I then get better flow and I am able to step on the gas sooner with less worry about cavitation or oil starvation at the top end.
That is why I like Red Line. It has other benefits however, as superior cleaning, low friction for more BHP and it can withstand much higher temperatures. These are benefits but not why I chose Red Line.
Ford is using 20 wt. oils because it gives better gas mileage. YOU cannot then say that the oil is therefore performing poorly in the other aspects. MY guess is that in all other measures the 20 wt. oil is the same as 30 wt. oils just that a few more MPG can be had.
aehaas
“Both have stated that thinner oils are being used for better fuel economy, not maximum engine life.”
Personally I use Red Line because it has a low pour point and therefore thickens less after engine shut down. At start up, I then get better flow and I am able to step on the gas sooner with less worry about cavitation or oil starvation at the top end.
That is why I like Red Line. It has other benefits however, as superior cleaning, low friction for more BHP and it can withstand much higher temperatures. These are benefits but not why I chose Red Line.
Ford is using 20 wt. oils because it gives better gas mileage. YOU cannot then say that the oil is therefore performing poorly in the other aspects. MY guess is that in all other measures the 20 wt. oil is the same as 30 wt. oils just that a few more MPG can be had.
aehaas
Well personally I like my women on the thick side...
Oh, oh this is the oil forums. Oops. Well in that case, I like a thin oil at start up and a thick oil when warm. The only compromise that meets that as close as possible is a synthetic 0w-30. Like M1 or GC.
So what was the problem again?
Oh, oh this is the oil forums. Oops. Well in that case, I like a thin oil at start up and a thick oil when warm. The only compromise that meets that as close as possible is a synthetic 0w-30. Like M1 or GC.
So what was the problem again?
"the thicker oil still needs a "lot of anti wear additives in it to protect the engine during the race". Notice he didn't say the thinner oil had the same amount of additives as the thicker oil, he just said it was lower friction.So you can infer anything you want from that, but your inference won't necessarily lead to the correct conclusion."
We can conclude that they didn't use the thin oil viscosity with a lot of anti-wear additives, something that would make sense if one is trying obtain as much as power output as possible, instead they used a thicker oil. They do this because in the real world they know that in general one needs a thicker oil film for better wear protection. Note that they didn't use a thinner oil than the qualifying oil, which is evidently what is needed in 5w20 bizarro land.
We can conclude that they didn't use the thin oil viscosity with a lot of anti-wear additives, something that would make sense if one is trying obtain as much as power output as possible, instead they used a thicker oil. They do this because in the real world they know that in general one needs a thicker oil film for better wear protection. Note that they didn't use a thinner oil than the qualifying oil, which is evidently what is needed in 5w20 bizarro land.
"I see nothing that convinces me that your reason for this is due to thicker is better. I'm sorry, but for US cars exported ..there is one thing that is probably as rare as they are ..it's the oil that they're spec'd with."
Then hopefully we can stop hearing about the 'holy bearing clearances', the 'vehicles are designed to use 5w20 and will be damaged if a thicker oil is used', etc., etc., as with very few exceptions, the vehicles will run fine with a thicker oil.
But we still need to acknowledge 'how the world works', as it doesn't stop at the hood of a vehicle in the US just because it's spec'd to use 5w20 per CAFE requirements.
Then hopefully we can stop hearing about the 'holy bearing clearances', the 'vehicles are designed to use 5w20 and will be damaged if a thicker oil is used', etc., etc., as with very few exceptions, the vehicles will run fine with a thicker oil.
But we still need to acknowledge 'how the world works', as it doesn't stop at the hood of a vehicle in the US just because it's spec'd to use 5w20 per CAFE requirements.
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"I see nothing that convinces me that your reason for this is due to thicker is better. I'm sorry, but for US cars exported ..there is one thing that is probably as rare as they are ..it's the oil that they're spec'd with."
Then hopefully we can stop hearing about the 'holy bearing clearances', the 'vehicles are designed to use 5w20 and will be damaged if a thicker oil is used', etc., etc., as with very few exceptions, the vehicles will run fine with a thicker oil.
Sure, but can we say that with confidence? We don't know what happens to US cars in foreign lands. We don't know if they last 100k ..80k ---90k ..150k
So we're still in the realm of speculation, are we not?? We've heard that Japanese (IIRC) cars are mostly not maintained throughout their typical 2 year ownership ..just oil added. They're then shipped off on the export market to nations that have very high taxes on new imports ..but virtually none for used cars. I'm sure that the Japanese have their own version of a domestic "jobs program" ..by promoting the "buy new" domestic iron. Do we not react the same way with the 2 or 3 year lease?? Gotta keep the wheels grease in more ways than with a bearing packing tool, pal
These importers then rebuild the engines ..etc..and voila~ duty free previously owned "refreshed" profit maker/employer.
What oil would tend to be more popular (mandated actually) for such service if one expects to make it through the 2-3 year gauntlet without mishap? Now in this environment, under this type of service, I would have to agree that thicker indeed offers more protection for a sacrificial engine. You want it to fail after you've gotten rid of it.
"But we still need to acknowledge 'how the world works', as it doesn't stop at the hood of a vehicle in the US just because it's spec'd to use 5w20 per CAFE requirements."
I agree to a great extent. I would rather say that we need to understand "why" the world works the way it does and not just assume that anything continental (in any continent) is superior to what is done under the CAFE umbrella. We have the largest mass motoring public on the planet. Something no other nation can claim and have different challenges and solutions. Others do not react this way.
Then hopefully we can stop hearing about the 'holy bearing clearances', the 'vehicles are designed to use 5w20 and will be damaged if a thicker oil is used', etc., etc., as with very few exceptions, the vehicles will run fine with a thicker oil.
Sure, but can we say that with confidence? We don't know what happens to US cars in foreign lands. We don't know if they last 100k ..80k ---90k ..150k
These importers then rebuild the engines ..etc..and voila~ duty free previously owned "refreshed" profit maker/employer.
What oil would tend to be more popular (mandated actually) for such service if one expects to make it through the 2-3 year gauntlet without mishap? Now in this environment, under this type of service, I would have to agree that thicker indeed offers more protection for a sacrificial engine. You want it to fail after you've gotten rid of it.
"But we still need to acknowledge 'how the world works', as it doesn't stop at the hood of a vehicle in the US just because it's spec'd to use 5w20 per CAFE requirements."
I agree to a great extent. I would rather say that we need to understand "why" the world works the way it does and not just assume that anything continental (in any continent) is superior to what is done under the CAFE umbrella. We have the largest mass motoring public on the planet. Something no other nation can claim and have different challenges and solutions. Others do not react this way.
For entertainment purposes, some typical NASCAR oils viscosities.
Un-restricted NASCAR Nextel Cup and Busch Series engines
50 cSt @40°C
9.1 cSt @100°C
Restrictor plate, NASCAR Nextel Cup and Busch Series engines
31 cSt @40°C
6.3 cSt @100°C
Restrictor plate NASCAR qualifying
11.5 cSt @40°C
3.8 cSt @100°C
So the thick oil here is essentially a 5w20, used in an +800HP flat tappet, pushrod pig-iron V8, turning over 9,500 rpm, with temperatures regular above 250 degrees.
Un-restricted NASCAR Nextel Cup and Busch Series engines
50 cSt @40°C
9.1 cSt @100°C
Restrictor plate, NASCAR Nextel Cup and Busch Series engines
31 cSt @40°C
6.3 cSt @100°C
Restrictor plate NASCAR qualifying
11.5 cSt @40°C
3.8 cSt @100°C
So the thick oil here is essentially a 5w20, used in an +800HP flat tappet, pushrod pig-iron V8, turning over 9,500 rpm, with temperatures regular above 250 degrees.
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