AAA warns E15 gasoline could cause car damage

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http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/11/30/aaa-e15-gas-harm-cars/1735793/

"E15, a higher blend of ethanol and gasoline, has rolled out in a handful of states. But its use in older vehicles is generating warnings from AAA, which says E15 could be harmful to pre-2012 vehicles.

11:40AM EST November 30. 2012 - The AAA says the Environmental Protection Agency and gasoline retailers should halt the sale of E15, a new ethanol blend that could damage millions of vehicles and void car warranties.

AAA, which issued its warning Friday, says just 12 million of more than 240 million cars, trucks and SUVs now in use have manufacturers' approval for E15. Flex-fuel vehicles, 2012 and newer General Motors vehicles, 2013 Fords and 2001 and later model Porsches are the exceptions, according to AAA, the nation's largest motorist group, with 53.5 million members.

"It is clear that millions of Americans are unfamiliar with E15, which means there is a strong possibility that many may improperly fill up using this gasoline and damage their vehicle," AAA President and CEO Robert Darbelnet tells USA TODAY. "Bringing E15 to the market without adequate safeguards does not responsibly meet the needs of consumers."

BMW, Chrysler, Nissan, Toyota and VW have said their warranties will not cover fuel-related claims caused by E15. Ford, Honda, Kia, Mercedes-Benz and Volvo have said E15 use will void warranties, says Darbelnet, citing potential corrosive damage to fuel lines, gaskets and other engine components.

Gasoline blended with 10% ethanol has become standard at most of the nation's 160,000 gas stations, spurred by federal laws and standards designed to use more renewable energy sources and lessen the nation's dependence on foreign oil. Pushed by ethanol producers, the EPA approved the use of E15 -- a 15% ethanol-gasoline blend -- in June over objections from automakers and the oil industry. It's been available at a handful of outlets in Kansas, Iowa and Nebraska since July.

EPA stickers affixed to gas station pumps say E15 is safe for use in virtually all vehicles 2001 and newer. (USA TODAY made repeated requests for EPA comment.)

But AAA -- in an unusual warning for a travel organization -- says the sale and use of E15 should be stopped until there is more-extensive testing, better pump labels to safeguard consumers and more consumer education about potential hazards.

Bob Dinneen, CEO of the Renewable Fuels Association, says E15 is safe for virtually all post-2001 vehicles, based on extensive government-sponsored testing. "We think the (EPA) warning label should be sufficient to notify consumers,'' Dinneen says. "There are no corrosive issues with E15. If there's an issue with E15 (damaging vehicles) we're going to know about it, and the EPA is going to know about it."

But the American Petroleum Institute says a three-year study conducted by automakers and the oil industry found that E15 is a consumer safety issue for a majority of drivers with pre-2012 vehicles. "Our testing of a range of ethanol levels at 15% to 20% has identified issues about engine durability,'' API group director and engineer Bob Greco says.

Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner has proposed legislation requiring the EPA to authorize an unbiased study of E15, agrees with the AAA. "(The) findings affirm what we have already heard—E15 causes premature engine damage and voids warranties, even on new models," the Wisconsin Republican says. "Concerns about E15 are not diminishing, they are increasing. That is telling. When an organization like AAA, a nationally trusted source for motorists, calls out the EPA, you would think the (Obama) Administration would listen."

zarco-4_3_r560.jpg

A gas pump at Zarco 66 in Lawrence, Kansas, where E15 gasoline is sold among its blends.(Photo: Scott Zaremba)

The National Association of Convenience Stores says it's also worried about the effect of E15 on station pumps and fuel lines. "The EPA says its OK to sell it, but for most retailers, there is too much uncertainty related to consumer demand and liability protection, especially if it's later determined E15 is a defective product or there are problems,'' spokesman Jeff Lenard says.

Scott Zaremba, who has been selling E15 blends at several of his eight Zarco 66 stations in Kansas since July, says no customers have complained. He's also fueling his 2001 Chevy pickup with E15 blend.

"The same complaints came when 10% blend came in -- the world was coming to an end,'' says Zaremba, 47. "E15 burns well and has great performance, and four people tell me it gives them better gas mileage. I don't see any major issues with it -- yet.""
 
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Forget about science, it's POLITICS that counts. Better gas milage from a fuel with a lower energy content, yeah right.
 
what a wast of ethanol. just keep the faith after all we did win on 55 MPH. what will they do when no one buys it?
 
Originally Posted By: morris
what will they do when no one buys it?


When politics meets common sense, history dictates that they'll FORCE you to use it, like E10.
 
I'll be happy to use E15 if its cost effective, much like E10, which I've never had a problem with, despite it getting the same shouty woe-is-everything rap about how it will destroy all cars on the planet.

Just like 5W-20. Yep, E15, gonna ruin everything.

In before the lock since this will inevitably get ignorant and political.
 
Originally Posted By: rshaw125
Prices look like the E 15 is more than 87???


Are you sure about that?
 
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
I'll be happy to use E15 if its cost effective, much like E10, which I've never had a problem with, despite it getting the same shouty woe-is-everything rap about how it will destroy all cars on the planet.

And because you haven't had a problem with it means no one else in the world has, which means they should have the same view as you, right?

Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Just like 5W-20. Yep, E15, gonna ruin everything.

"BMW, Chrysler, Nissan, Toyota and VW have said their warranties will not cover fuel-related claims caused by E15. Ford, Honda, Kia, Mercedes-Benz and Volvo have said E15 use will void warranties, says Darbelnet, citing potential corrosive damage to fuel lines, gaskets and other engine components."

Btw, I wasn't aware there was tens of thousands of people railing against thin oils. Show me where they are, I'd love to see them. Even if anyone truly believed thin oils were dangerous, no one ever took their freedom of choice to use thicker oils away from them, unlike ethanol in gas for many people.

The Great Ethanol Scam
http://cnsnews.com/blog/alan-caruba/great-ethanol-scam

Here's just 1 video of many on youtube:
Talking About The Damage That Ethanol In Gasoline Does To Small Engines
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIKvIXQO5-0
 
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Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Forget about science, oit's POLITICS that counts. Better gas milage from a fuel with a lower energy content, yeah right.


For an older vehicle in a sufficiently poor state of tune it is very possible that the ethanol would improve the operational efficiency enough to increase MPGs. If you're driving something that already runs reasonably well, maybe not so much.
 
Originally Posted By: John_K
I think we need a dial on the pump so we can blend our own: "I'm feeling E-43ish today."
banana2.gif


John


If your gas station has both E85 and E10, and if they allow self-serve you already have that option.
 
Originally Posted By: Darkfire
And because you haven't had a problem with it means no one else in the world has, which means they should have the same view as you, right?


Almost none have, that's whats so awesome about it. Its guys like you who wanna dig to find that %1 with a problem and then decide that all ethanol is evil. Take your own advice.

Quote:
"BMW, Chrysler, Nissan, Toyota and VW have said their warranties will not cover fuel-related claims caused by E15. Ford, Honda, Kia, Mercedes-Benz and Volvo have said E15 use will void warranties, says Darbelnet, citing potential corrosive damage to fuel lines, gaskets and other engine components."


Yeah, because they'd have to be retarded to suggest using E15 in cars that only say E10 in their manuals. You seem to be forgetting about the leagues of cars that are now certified with up to E85 ethanol, which they'll cover. I'm sure if an auto manufacturer says "use only 87 octane" and it fails because you feed it premium, you better believe they won't cover that either. But you somehow relate this cause and effect to "E15 is evil" arbitrarily. Congratulations.

Quote:
Btw, I wasn't aware there was tens of thousands of people railing against thin oils. Show me where they are, I'd love to see them. Even if anyone truly believed thin oils were dangerous, no one ever took their freedom of choice to use thicker oils away from them, unlike ethanol in gas for many people.


First, you must not have seen one of the dozens of posts around here where people instantly blame 5W-20's existence on CAFE standards. Two, who is forcing you to use E15? Even at the pumps carrying E15 is specifies its for Flex-Fuel vehicles. [censored], they even say E15 is only for newer cars. I guess by your logic the government is planning to make any pre-2001 car obsolete? Get your head out of the grass dude...

Quote:
The Great Ethanol Scam
http://cnsnews.com/blog/alan-caruba/great-ethanol-scam

Here's just 1 video of many on youtube:
Talking About The Damage That Ethanol In Gasoline Does To Small Engines
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIKvIXQO5-0


Hilariously skewed videos and a "news" website from a horrifically biased right-wing fundamentalist website do nothing to prove your point. It just makes me laugh that your research is limited to Google and YouTube.
 
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Originally Posted By: yonyon
Originally Posted By: John_K
I think we need a dial on the pump so we can blend our own: "I'm feeling E-43ish today."
banana2.gif


John


If your gas station has both E85 and E10, and if they allow self-serve you already have that option.


You'll have to be brave to try this one at a busy gas station with long lines of cars, lol. I do like John_K's idea though. Lots of cars run on up to E30 without any real loss in mileage (non Flex Fuel cars).
 
Why is there no 91 or 93 octane gas at that station? Many cars would also have mechanical problems and voided warranties if the manual specified having 91 or more octane.

Anyway, Ethanol in gasoline is mostly a scam.
 
Originally Posted By: artificialist
Why is there no 91 or 93 octane gas at that station?


You are looking at one pump at that station.
 
Originally Posted By: yonyon
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Forget about science, oit's POLITICS that counts. Better gas milage from a fuel with a lower energy content, yeah right.


For an older vehicle in a sufficiently poor state of tune it is very possible that the ethanol would improve the operational efficiency enough to increase MPGs. If you're driving something that already runs reasonably well, maybe not so much.


Better fuel economy is possible in a car that has sufficient range in its ability to advance timing beyond knock, since ethanol does enhance octane.
I really can't believe that an increase in ethanol content from 10% to 15% is going to cause the sky to fall.
When 10% ethanol fuels first came into common use, we heard the same ominous predictions.
Nothing bad happened, except that Billy Bob now had something else to blame for the poor running of his pickup, since the cause couldn't have been negelect.
WRT voiding the warranty, there is nothing in the OM of my 2012 Accord to indicate that using E15 would do any such thing.
I'd listen if I heard this from the manufacturers themselves rather than someone from a map making travel agency battery reseller quoted in a parakeet cage liner newspaper.
Finally, if EPA says that E15 is a go, then I doubt that any manufacturer would be allowed to void a warranty based upon its use.
To the poster who said that the E15 appeared to be more expensive than the 87 octane, last that I looked 3.349 was less than 3.399.
I may not be a mathematician, but I am an accountant.
 
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