AAA warns E15 gasoline could cause car damage

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Originally Posted By: sciphi
Ethanol reduces knock, so that means more boost. More boost = more power!!!

As I stated earlier in this thread, gasoline with ethanol is still 87 octane. It has no more reduction in knock than pure 87 octane gasoline. At the blender they start with lower octane gasoline and add ethanol to bring it up to 87 octane. Hence, no extra boost and no extra power.

Your statement sounds like something a politician would say. It's analogous to saying our State lottery supports general education.
 
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Originally Posted By: Doog
My 2012 Toyota Avalon says on the gas cap NO E15 as it will damage the engine and void the factory warranty. So you don't know what you are talking about.


Its not a recommended fuel then. Prove it will damage the engine and you have a case. Until then they're just saying it could and they won't cover it.


Sorry, you prove it won't before you mandate the public to use it. This violates any consumer protection laws. It is like saying prove that lead paint harms children before we remove it from the market.
 
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Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
You prove it won't. Until then you don't know what you are talking about and are just saying it won't hurt anything. If the car mfg says don't run something there is a reason for it.


Oh, you. You just couldn't let me go, could you? This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. You truly are incorruptible, aren't you?

Fact is you have no argument. Reality is the car manufacturers haven't tested for it so they would never recommend it. Like I said before, if you run 89 octane in a car designed for 87 and that specifically causes a problem, you also won't be covered. My own car has Chrysler TSB's stating not to run anything over 87 octane because it can cause "driveability issues". Does it really? No. But according to you I can claim midgrade and premium will destroy my car.

Quote:
At just a 5 cent savings p/gallon( using prices in the photo in this thread )over the E10 why would anyone run it if the car mfg says not to?


And, at the very least, E10 will always be available, a ratio that has a long standing success of working just fine in %95 of engines out there. Now you're thinkin' though, because this makes plenty of sense, and even I will make that choice over E15 just because it does.
 
Originally Posted By: Doog
Sorry, you prove it won't before you mandate the public to use it.


The stupidity of this knows no bounds because 1) I'm not your government and 2) they're not forcing anyone to use it and likely never will because forcing people to would mean making any pre-2001 car obsolete by their own admission. I guess you're mandated to use E85 too and that should be banned because I am forcing you to use it in your non Flex-Fuel vehicle? Reality check dude.
 
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Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
You prove it won't. Until then you don't know what you are talking about and are just saying it won't hurt anything. If the car mfg says don't run something there is a reason for it.


Oh, you. You just couldn't let me go, could you? This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. You truly are incorruptible, aren't you?

Fact is you have no argument. Reality is the car manufacturers haven't tested for it so they would never recommend it. Like I said before, if you run 89 octane in a car designed for 87 and that specifically causes a problem, you also won't be covered. My own car has Chrysler TSB's stating not to run anything over 87 octane because it can cause "driveability issues". Does it really? No. But according to you I can claim midgrade and premium will destroy my car.

Quote:
At just a 5 cent savings p/gallon( using prices in the photo in this thread )over the E10 why would anyone run it if the car mfg says not to?


And, at the very least, E10 will always be available, a ratio that has a long standing success of working just fine in %95 of engines out there. Now you're thinkin' though, because this makes plenty of sense, and even I will make that choice over E15 just because it does.


Typical Canadian logic.
 
The high octane part is the only good thing about E85. Not sure the octanes in E15.

Regarding the E15 study I was referring to:

Quote:
The CRC Engine Durability study took duplicates of eight different vehicle model engines spanning 2001-2009 model years. All 16 vehicles were tested over a 500-hour durability cycle corresponding to about 100,000 miles of vehicle usage. A range of engine operating parameters was monitored during the test, including cylinder compression, valve wear, valve leakage, emissions and emissions control system diagnostics. Two of the engines tested on E15 had mechanical damage. Another engine showed increased tailpipe emissions beyond the allowable limit.

This study adds to the body of knowledge on the effects of higher blends of ethanol. Ten research papers have been published on the effects of increasing the ethanol blend ratio to E15 from the current E10. In a study by the Oak Ridge National Laboratory on the impact on fuel dispensers, all gaskets, seals and O-rings swelled and showed effects that can result in leaks. The National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) tested samples of service station equipment, and found that, on average, about half of the equipment failed the compatibility tests. Another NREL study found severe damage to marine engines run on E15.


http://content.usatoday.com/communities/.../1#.ULuKaGerE9Q
 
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Originally Posted By: Doog
Typical Canadian logic.


This is how you know I rule and I won this argument, lol.


It is not an argument. You are just ignoring the facts. I work in the automotive industry. All of the big 6 OEM's do not agree with the EPA testing and are demanding more. This is well documented in the media. But like many back woods lumberjack types you seem to want to ignore that. I find that typical from our friends in the North woods who rarely make it to civilization to see what is really going on.
 
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Though ethanol increases octane, the logic also works backwards -- that a low, sub-87 octane gasoline can (and is) used for blending. The end result is still 87 octane, leaving the knock sensor a moot point in this discussion. Hence, we don't get better fuel economy with E10, and we'll get even less with E15. I've seen this in my checks years ago when we had a choice of E10 or pure gas.

What octane will E15 have?

That's an excellent point that most people don't realize. People should be outraged that they're paying premium prices for low quality gas. When you buy 93 octane, the gas in that blend is only 89-90 octane at most--that is why they say that 93 E10 has the same energy content as 89 E0. 89 E10 = lower than 87 octane gasoline (like 86.3) You are being ripped off. Everyone should read these facts:

Big Corn and Ethanol Hoax
http://www.humanevents.com/2008/03/11/big-corn-and-ethanol-hoax/

Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Two, who is forcing you to use E15? Even at the pumps carrying E15 is specifies its for Flex-Fuel vehicles. [censored], they even say E15 is only for newer cars.

Nice strawman, I never said anything about E15 in the text of mine that you specifically quoted, I said "ethanol in gas"--I was referring to the existing E10 which is forced upon most people if they want to drive. Brb driving 350+ miles to get E0 from a site listed on puregas.org

Originally Posted By: RiceCake
I guess by your logic the government is planning to make any pre-2001 car obsolete?

EU to ban cars from cities by 2050
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8411336/EU-to-ban-cars-from-cities-by-2050.html
 
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Wow, wanna tell me how I can put a hydrogen generator on my car and that perpetual motion exists next Darkfire? Maybe ethanol is a "New World Order" thing. Only someone insane would link me to an article in the Telegraph trying to reinforce his point...when the article he quotes says that the person claiming cars will be banned is a hysterical fundamentalist.

Sheesh.

friendly_jacek you seem intelligent over these other two and I found and read the CRC article you were referring to. While one can argue that they had engines fail on E0, and some pass totally fine even on E20, it does show a trend.

But like I said before, the EPA says that E15 is only for newer cars. That's pretty bold and it should state its only for Flex-Fuel compatible cars, but I digress. The fact is they're not forcing anyone to use it and E10 will always be around, or E0 even.

But to resist petty bashing of someone because of the country they're from since I actually have intelligence, unlike our supposed automotive industry expert preaching on a website forum above, I think that just some people want something to complain about and to take vast assumptions like E15 will be forced on everyone and all pre-2001 cars will somehow be destroyed in absentia of compatible fuels.
 
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
... who is forcing you to use E15? Even at the pumps carrying E15 is specifies its for Flex-Fuel vehicles. [censored], they even say E15 is only for newer cars. I guess by your logic the government is planning to make any pre-2001 car obsolete?

They already rendered my 71 Cutlass obsolete by removing pure gas from the market. It runs lousy with E10 (something I have yet to work on). Having pure gas available only at marinas, and only in the summertime, is not what I call having a choice in the marketplace. I believe my choice was taken away - or at least very difficult to make - around 1995.

Nobody is making us buy E15... yet! I doubt much of the public will buy E15 once they find the energy content is lower than E10, and the price is not commensurate with the energy content. And the public will find out, once the word spreads and they become aware as they have with E10. Once nobody starts buying E15, I can see the day when E10 will be phased out by mandate, or some other forced means. It's not too far fetched for this to happen in a few years - say 2016, when all pre-2001 cars will be 15 years or older and considered obsolete.
 
rice - What makes you think he only used the internet [same as you]?
Where is it listed what his vicarious and empirical evidence comes from?

You exalt yourself too much.
 
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Only someone insane would link me to an article in the Telegraph trying to reinforce his point...when the article he quotes says that the person claiming cars will be banned is a hysterical fundamentalist.

You don't get it, it doesn't matter what he thinks, this is an agenda shared by thousands of those in control, dissenters views have no bearing on stated policy. Ethanol is only being rammed through to make people believe that a certain agenda which we are not allowed to name here is actually real and legitimate. It is only being done as an interim step towards shifting over to 100% electric vehicles.

Also, they don't need to "ban" pre-2001 (or even non-hybrids of any year) cars. Scams like "cash for clunkers" (an agenda to get quality, older used cars off of the roads) are all they need, plus the known damage they will cause from more ethanol over time. Sounds like you place a lot of faith in the EPA--the same EPA that told the 1st responders on 9/11 that the air was safe to breathe. The same 1st responders who most of which are dead now because of that lie.

Originally Posted By: RiceCake
But like I said before, the EPA says that E15 is only for newer cars. That's pretty bold and it should state its only for Flex-Fuel compatible cars, but I digress. The fact is they're not forcing anyone to use it and E10 will always be around, or E0 even.

Again you avoid the fact that most people are already forced to use E10. Are you ok with mandatory healthcare insurance as well?

Originally Posted By: RiceCake
I think that just some people want something to complain about and to take vast assumptions like E15 will be forced on everyone and all pre-2001 cars will somehow be destroyed in absentia of compatible fuels.

If you can be forced to buy healthcare, you can be forced to buy a flex fuel vehicle. Someone actually publicly stated that flex fuel vehicles should be MANDATORY, I'll let you look that up for yourself. Maybe you don't care though because you might actually perceive that as freedom.

Brb buying a $45K+ car being wooed that the govt. will give a $7.5K tax credit to tens of millions with no jobs and tens of millions on foodstamps whose homes went into foreclosure when their used 1990's 4 cyl that they paid under $5K for gets better mileage on E0 than a hybrid Toyota Prius on even E10.

Brb creating austerity and pretending that you are being helped and your life is being improved.
 
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Originally Posted By: Kestas
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
... who is forcing you to use E15? Even at the pumps carrying E15 is specifies its for Flex-Fuel vehicles. [censored], they even say E15 is only for newer cars. I guess by your logic the government is planning to make any pre-2001 car obsolete?

They already rendered my 71 Cutlass obsolete by removing pure gas from the market. It runs lousy with E10 (something I have yet to work on). Having pure gas available only at marinas, and only in the summertime, is not what I call having a choice in the marketplace. I believe my choice was taken away - or at least very difficult to make - around 1995.


You do not have a fuel problem. You have an OPERATOR problem. I estimate my Caddy has close to 60,000 miles on E10 with ZERO, repeat ZERO problems.

Quote:
Nobody is making us buy E15... yet! I doubt much of the public will buy E15 once they find the energy content is lower than E10, and the price is not commensurate with the energy content. And the public will find out, once the word spreads and they become aware as they have with E10. Once nobody starts buying E15, I can see the day when E10 will be phased out by mandate, or some other forced means. It's not too far fetched for this to happen in a few years - say 2016, when all pre-2001 cars will be 15 years or older and considered obsolete.


Doesn't bother me. I'd rather not have to use E15...but if I do, no big deal. Probably have to go up one jet size in the Caddy's carb.
 
i once owned a 1979 pontiac gran prix with a 301 in it. for some reason i don't know what i guess maybe for cleaning the fuel system i added a quart of mineral spirits to the gas tank. that was the last tank of gas that car ever ran with.

i prefer my gasoline alcohol free.
 
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Most of today's vehicles are flex fuel and can run off E85,so 15% should be fine.


No they aren't. What???
21.gif


If a car is truly FlexFuel capable( i.e. can run E85 )it will usually have a FlexFuel badge somewhere on it and it will have a different gas cap saying it can run E85. If a car isn't designated as FlexFuel capable by the car mfg it is not designed to run on nor should it run on E85.


I take it back.
What I should have written is that most of the newer vehicles(not brand new) have a flex fuel badge on the rear somewhere. If they are no longer being made then I apologize I just assumed since government seems to be mandating more ethanol I assume the oem's would built the cars to compensate.

And doog. I really would like you to expand on the "typical Canadian logic" comment.
Something about glass houses and stones. Rice cake is on his own here. There is nothing typical Canadian about him. Perhaps he's an import
 
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Wow, way to be racist. Clevy basically agrees with the points I'm trying to make but in order to kiss up to doog he's not beyond inferring I'm just some idiot immigrant who came to Canada and that he has a right to shun me.

Unless by "import" you somehow mean something more mature.
 
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Wait, so are you or are you not a native born Canadian from Canadia? It's no beg deal or anything but now that the issue's been raised...
 
Originally Posted By: volk06
They say the optimal blend is E30 supposably.
Did you seriously just type the word supposably?
 
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