Ethanol and increased pollution

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Interesting article... https://thehill.com/policy/energy-e...ces-plan-to-expand-ethanol-use-linked-to
Quote
The White House on Monday rolled out a new plan that would allow higher blends of ethanol in vehicle fuels, amid concerns that the change could lead to more air pollution. The administration's memo calls to extend the sale of E15 -- consisting of 15 percent of ethanol blended into gasoline -- year round. The fuel was blocked between June 1 and Sept. 15, as science shows burning ethanol in warmer temperature leads to heightened ground-level ozone pollution and smog. A senior White House official said the plan was part of President Trump's free market plan. "This action is basically specifically directed at increasing the supply of biofuels and providing consumer choice and inline with the president's approach to propping up the free market," the official told reporters on a call. "The President has repeatedly stated his support of the Renewable Fuels Standard (RFS) program and thinks it's good to have domestically created fuel here and think it will be good for the agriculture industry overall." Through the memo, the White House will ask the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to formally draft a regulation allowing for the use of E15 year-round. No formal text has yet been provided. The rule will go through a formal comment period, the official said. An EPA spokesperson said the agency will follow the president's direction "and proceed as expeditiously as practicable." "He is fulfilling his promise by providing clear policy direction that will expand opportunities for our nation's farmers, provide certainty to our refiners and bolster the United States' role as a biofuels powerhouse," the spokesperson said. But the plan is likely to hit a few major roadblocks. The EPA has concluded as recently as 2011 that it could not allow the use of E15 due to the air pollution restrictions regulated under the Clean Air Act. A number of outside environmentalist groups have additionally vowed to sue over any change to the fuel policy. While ethanol is a renewable fuel thats increased usage could potentially offset the burning and mining of fossil fuels, a number of studies have found that burning the gas is not any cleaner, and in some instances more harmful. "The limits exist in the Clean Air Act for a reason. Ethanol blended in gasoline does produce more pollutants that lead to smog than gasoline alone. So by increasing the amount from 10 percent to 15 percent, that breaks those limits that are in the Clean Air Act and could potentially lead to more ozone formation," said David DeGennaro, agricultural policy specialist for the National Wildlife Federation. The Senior White House official emphasized that the memo is focused on increasing the biofuel market and "isn't directly related to climate change." The administration's announcement comes a day after the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), released a report that found the world needs to decrease emissions by 45 percent by 2030 or else the atmosphere could hit 1.5 degrees Celsius of warming. The report was conducted at the behest of negotiators for the Paris climate agreement who asked the IPCC to study what must be done in order to limit climate rise to 1.5 degrees Celsius above pre-industrial temperatures. The president announced he was pulling the United States out of the agreement last summer. Trump's move is championed by corn growers as it would likely expand the market of ethanol but opposed by representatives of the oil and gas industry. Trump made a promise during the Iowa Caucus that he would remove the restrictions on E15. He won the state's Republican race. In April, the president signaled that the change was imminent, telling reporters at the White House of gasoline blends, "We're going to raise it up to 15 percent and raise it to a 12-month period." The change would essentially waive E15 from national vapor-pressure requirements under the Clean Air Act. Additionally, the White House memo will direct EPA to consider other measures to help stabilize and make more transparent the Renewable identification Number (RIN) market. Currently refiners and importers of natural gas must blend their fuels with ethanol before sales or purchase RINs sold on the market. The administration's RIN reform would include requiring public disclosure of RIN, limit the length of time that non refinery or importers can hold a RIN and improve compliance obligations on a more frequent basis.
 

Kestas

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If going from 10% to 15% ethanol increases ground level ozone, what about the 0% to 10% jump we made? I mention this because the Detroit area has ozone action days, where the public is asked to refrain from participating in ozone-producing activities, e.g., mowing the lawn, spray painting. If the Detroit metro area becomes noncompliant with ground level ozone, the EPA can come down heavy on us. This information about ethanol's effect on our air quality actually supports the argument of going back to pure gas for the summer, instead of being burdened with ethanol in our gas, then being blamed that our air is unhealthy, and perpetuating this merry-go-round of government regulations.
 

StevieC

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It is interesting and I think that with modern engine technology and fuel management there is no need for Ethanol in fuels. I know this is highly debated though.
 
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I'm just amazed that anybody with a brain could ever consider anything from the IPCC anything but pure hogwash. According to Al Gore, our daily temperatures should resemble something close to a deep fryer by now. I'm out because anything more will be considered "political"...
 
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IPCC is a conspiracy of recruits to prop up a straw man argument. They would like for you to believe that within 20 years you'll be gasping for breath because there's no oxygen left. If they had been formed 30 years ago, they would have predicted that we'd all be dead by now.
 
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Originally Posted by Dave9
IPCC is a conspiracy of recruits to prop up a straw man argument.......If they had been formed 30 years ago, they would have predicted that we'd all be dead by now.
"The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change was created in 1988"
 
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Originally Posted by Kestas
If going from 10% to 15% ethanol increases ground level ozone, what about the 0% to 10% jump we made? I mention this because the Detroit area has ozone action days, where the public is asked to refrain from participating in ozone-producing activities, e.g., mowing the lawn, spray painting. If the Detroit metro area becomes noncompliant with ground level ozone, the EPA can come down heavy on us. This information about ethanol's effect on our air quality actually supports the argument of going back to pure gas for the summer, instead of being burdened with ethanol in our gas, then being blamed that our air is unhealthy, and perpetuating this merry-go-round of government regulations.
Apparently not a problem, however it does make you wonder how E85 gets by. We would need a chemist to explain how E85 and E10 are ok, but E15 is not. I suspect there's a simple explanation.
 
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Wow and I thought reformulated fuels were supposed to REDUCE pollution. All this time everybody was crowing about biofuels and how wonderful they are. Automakers were forced to build flex fuel vehicles. Trump gets elected and suddenly biofuel DESTROYS the planet and violates the Paris accords. Makes you wonder if politics has infected science. Naaaaaaaaaaah!!!
 
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E85 actually doesn't have the problem. The issue on e15 is with older cars that emit VOC out of their gas tank while the car sits, emit more VOC with e15 because it off gasses faster than e10. E85 emits less VOC so is less of an issue. Now on cars like the Prius, Volt and most Subaru's they have more or less sealed tanks that emit minimal VOC and have no issues with any ethanol blend.
 

StevieC

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Rmay, lot of good that does with the tanks at the gas stations being vented to the air. I regularly smell fuel at the stations I fill up at from the vent stack usually somewhere not far from the pumps fill ports in the ground.
 
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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by Kestas
If going from 10% to 15% ethanol increases ground level ozone, what about the 0% to 10% jump we made? I mention this because the Detroit area has ozone action days, where the public is asked to refrain from participating in ozone-producing activities, e.g., mowing the lawn, spray painting. If the Detroit metro area becomes noncompliant with ground level ozone, the EPA can come down heavy on us. This information about ethanol's effect on our air quality actually supports the argument of going back to pure gas for the summer, instead of being burdened with ethanol in our gas, then being blamed that our air is unhealthy, and perpetuating this merry-go-round of government regulations.
Apparently not a problem, however it does make you wonder how E85 gets by. We would need a chemist to explain how E85 and E10 are ok, but E15 is not. I suspect there's a simple explanation.
E85 ? Exactly what I was thinking . Off topic , a little , but I saw a documentary that said 100% ethanol is available in Brazil ( I think ? ) . But I think it said they make it from sugar cain , in stead of corn ?
 
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Originally Posted by Rmay635703
E85 actually doesn't have the problem. The issue on e15 is with older cars that emit VOC out of their gas tank while the car sits, emit more VOC with e15 because it off gasses faster than e10. E85 emits less VOC so is less of an issue. Now on cars like the Prius, Volt and most Subaru's they have more or less sealed tanks that emit minimal VOC and have no issues with any ethanol blend.
This is pure hog wash... Tell me where the line is between sealed gas tanks and unsealed gas tanks... I have a 1989 Dodge Caravan and a 1986 Dodge Onmi. Both have sealed gas tanks. I used to own a 1979 Dodge 4D sedan that required a special gas cap, as in a sealed cap. IIRC, my 1973 Plymouth Duster 340 was not sealed though. How many old cars earlier the 1979 are still on the road?? Flawed stats.
 

StevieC

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Originally Posted by StevieC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil
Quote
The Brazilian car manufacturing industry developed flexible-fuel vehicles that can run on any proportion of gasoline (E20-E25 blend) and hydrous ethanol (E100). ... This production price difference, though small, contributes to the competitiveness of the hydrated ethanol (E100) used in Brazil
Also a VW running on 100% Ethanol in Brazil - https://www.greencarreports.com/new...brazils-volkswagen-gol-flex-fuel-vehicle
Brazil makes ethanol from sugarcane waste and burns the leftovers ( Bagasse) to heat the process. Been doing that since the 70's or so.
 
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The confusion is in the term "vented". A true "vented" fuel cap is like a scupper on a boat. It won't let fuel fly out, but will allow the passage of air and vapor as much as it wants. Modern fuel caps are not considered to be "vented" because they have valves that only allow air to pass in or out when a certain limit of negative or positive pressure has been reached. They do allow for a kind of venting of the fuel tank, but not in the same way as true "vented" fuel caps did. When a fuel tank is sitting, pressure has to go somewhere. In hot weather, my EPA fuel cans bulge ridiculously, and then suck themselves into a complete pucker at night. A vehicle's fuel tank would do the same thing if it were not for the release of positive and negative pressure.
 
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Originally Posted by Rmay635703
E85 actually doesn't have the problem. The issue on e15 is with older cars that emit VOC out of their gas tank while the car sits, emit more VOC with e15 because it off gasses faster than e10. E85 emits less VOC so is less of an issue. Now on cars like the Prius, Volt and most Subaru's they have more or less sealed tanks that emit minimal VOC and have no issues with any ethanol blend.
So really this will help in the long run. Many people think this will kill the fuel systems in older cars, so we'll get rid of those older cars faster and actually be better off. Right? Who knows. It seems everyone manipulates the data to say what they want. It is really hard to know what to believe.
 
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Originally Posted by Kestas
If going from 10% to 15% ethanol increases ground level ozone, what about the 0% to 10% jump we made? I mention this because the Detroit area has ozone action days, where the public is asked to refrain from participating in ozone-producing activities, e.g., mowing the lawn, spray painting. If the Detroit metro area becomes noncompliant with ground level ozone, the EPA can come down heavy on us. This information about ethanol's effect on our air quality actually supports the argument of going back to pure gas for the summer, instead of being burdened with ethanol in our gas, then being blamed that our air is unhealthy, and perpetuating this merry-go-round of government regulations.
No, not just summer but all year round. Go back to non-ethanol gas all year round period. Another tree-hugger fail as they were the ones pushing ethanol in the early 2000's.
 
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Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
The confusion is in the term "vented". A true "vented" fuel cap is like a scupper on a boat. It won't let fuel fly out, but will allow the passage of air and vapor as much as it wants. Modern fuel caps are not considered to be "vented" because they have valves that only allow air to pass in or out when a certain limit of negative or positive pressure has been reached. They do allow for a kind of venting of the fuel tank, but not in the same way as true "vented" fuel caps did. When a fuel tank is sitting, pressure has to go somewhere. In hot weather, my EPA fuel cans bulge ridiculously, and then suck themselves into a complete pucker at night. A vehicle's fuel tank would do the same thing if it were not for the release of positive and negative pressure.
The EVAP system.
 
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