Warranties voided for E15 users

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Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: oldhp
You would not believe the difference using 91 octane E-ZERO fuel in either vehicle. Some will say its the higher octane, but they run no different on 89/93 octane E-10 fuel.
Yes, I would think it would be the octane, and not the lack of ethanol, responsible for the performance difference. We have a few E0 stations around here, but they sell only 87 octane E0. I tried three tankfuls in a row in my Ridgeline. Disappointingly, it ran like 87 octane E10. Which is to say, it runs "fine", but the engine has a real edge to it when you use 93 octane, and that's what we use all the time in both of our vehicles. Unfortunately, 87 octane E0 was giving me the performance of regular at the price of mid grade. So I went back to using 93 octane E10.
It's that crazy butt dyno at work again. E0 should have given you better gas mileage because E0 has more btu's per gallon than E10. Ethanol has less btu per gallon so while the cost per gallon is lower, the mileage is worse. If you're close to the corn belt, the lower price of ethanol offsets this, but in other areas like the Northeast where transportation costs are high, it'd cost more to run E85 per mile than just E10. The BTU content of regular 87 vs 93 octane is the same and most engines aren't designed to take advantage of it. Either it's tuned for 87 or 91. If it's tuned for 91, you get worse performance with 87, if it's tuned for 87, adding 93 does nothing.
 
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But so what if E0 did deliver better fuel mileage? If it costs more per mile to do it, what is the benefit? In my area E10 is running around $2.14 today. Say a vehicle I am using is getting 20 mpg on it. That would be a per mile cost of 10.7 cents a mile. Now, E0 in my area is running about $2.59. So to break even on the cost per mile, I would have to get 24 mpg out of it, or roughly 20% better fuel economy which seems unrealistic. Sure, feels better to get higher mpg, but the cost was the same per mile. And basing things on the 10% fuel economy difference some argue, probably getting 22 mpg out of E0 would be more realistic and in that case, the E10 would still be cheaper to use. And that is true, ethanol prices are such that using something like E85 is more of a regional thing as to whether it is worth it. But there is a up side.... while the EPA does mandate a certain level of ethanol be used in the country, it DOES NOT mandate that everyone use E10. If more folks, where it is cost effective to do so, used the higher blends like E20, E30, E50, E85, then that would take the pressure off blending up so much E10. States may regulate that E0 not be available, but EPA doesn't make that mandate. They primarily concern themselves with the overall ethanol use in the country.
 

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Originally Posted By: turtlevette
"It wasn't designed to do that" is not technical. Thats a line of horse that you give to some stupid business major who thinks its a technical reason. Capiche?
Well I'm an engineer, and I know every decision has a drawback. Design for E85 and you lose something somewhere else (maybe power, or cheaper parts, or a lighter plastic tank, or excess NOx that fails the emissions test). Design for E10 and you gain back the things you lost. Anoth example: Honda's Civic Natural Gas.... it's basically identical to a normal civic. Except less horsepower. And it needs a different CNG-only oil, that is quite expensive, because normal oil doesn't work. Every design decision has compromises somewhere else. BTW what's your career? I ask because it amuses me when people like Noam Chomsky opine on things like greenhouse gas, or car exhaust pollution, or economics..... but he's an ENGLISH professor! His opinion outside his field is about worthless. (Better to listen to an actual Econ professor like Walter E Williams or Thomas Sowell.) Oh and yes ethanol will eat lines. I poured some E85 into my 1985 Plymouth. It ran okay but I had to replace the fuel lines about 1000 miles later (or I would have, except I decided to junk the car instead).
 
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Originally Posted By: veryHeavy
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
"It wasn't designed to do that" is not technical. Thats a line of horse that you give to some stupid business major who thinks its a technical reason. Capiche?
Well I'm an engineer,
Not a very good one apparently. There have been several explanations here that there is no difference between hardware on a flex fuel and non flex fuel vehicles except for one sensor. Do people really think there is a 10% hose and fuel pump and a different one for 15%. And a different one for 30% so on and so forth. This is not complex or hard to do at all. The model t was the first flex fuel vehicle. But its too much trouble to do now?
 
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Originally Posted By: veryHeavy
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
"It wasn't designed to do that" is not technical. Thats a line of horse that you give to some stupid business major who thinks its a technical reason. Capiche?
Well I'm an engineer, and I know every decision has a drawback. Design for E85 and you lose something somewhere else (maybe power, or cheaper parts, or a lighter plastic tank, or excess NOx that fails the emissions test). Design for E10 and you gain back the things you lost. Anoth example: Honda's Civic Natural Gas.... it's basically identical to a normal civic. Except less horsepower. And it needs a different CNG-only oil, that is quite expensive, because normal oil doesn't work. Every design decision has compromises somewhere else. BTW what's your career? I ask because it amuses me when people like Noam Chomsky opine on things like greenhouse gas, or car exhaust pollution, or economics..... but he's an ENGLISH professor! His opinion outside his field is about worthless. (Better to listen to an actual Econ professor like Walter E Williams or Thomas Sowell.) Oh and yes ethanol will eat lines. I poured some E85 into my 1985 Plymouth. It ran okay but I had to replace the fuel lines about 1000 miles later (or I would have, except I decided to junk the car instead).
Honda Civic Natural Gas requires different CNG engine oil? Do you have a source for this because the 2005, 2012 and 2015 Civic Natural Gas owner's manual specifies regular oil. Maybe I am mistaken.
 
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Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Do people really think there is a 10% hose and fuel pump and a different one for 15%. And a different one for 30% so on and so forth.
There. We agree on something. The same thing goes for OPE and recreational stuff. Instead of complying with the fuel that is available on the market, or even future-proofing something, it's easier to put garbage fuel system components on and then blame the fuel. I may have reasons to not want to use E15, E85, or even E10. Fine. That doesn't mean that OEMs can't provide something a little more robust. veryHeavy: Where is your source that CNG specific oils are required? I'm asking, too. Some oil companies do offer CNG and LPG specific motor oils, but I've never seen it adequately demonstrated that they are necessary. The taxis used ordinary conventional motor oil, despite sales pitches to the contrary.
 
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Originally Posted By: veryHeavy
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
"It wasn't designed to do that" is not technical. Thats a line of horse that you give to some stupid business major who thinks its a technical reason. Capiche?
Well I'm an engineer, and I know every decision has a drawback. Design for E85 and you lose something somewhere else (maybe power, or cheaper parts, or a lighter plastic tank, or excess NOx that fails the emissions test). Design for E10 and you gain back the things you lost. Anoth example: Honda's Civic Natural Gas.... it's basically identical to a normal civic. Except less horsepower. And it needs a different CNG-only oil, that is quite expensive, because normal oil doesn't work. Every design decision has compromises somewhere else. BTW what's your career? I ask because it amuses me when people like Noam Chomsky opine on things like greenhouse gas, or car exhaust pollution, or economics..... but he's an ENGLISH professor! His opinion outside his field is about worthless. (Better to listen to an actual Econ professor like Walter E Williams or Thomas Sowell.) Oh and yes ethanol will eat lines. I poured some E85 into my 1985 Plymouth. It ran okay but I had to replace the fuel lines about 1000 miles later (or I would have, except I decided to junk the car instead).
You are an engineer and you put a fuel in a car that it wasn't designed for and expected what now?
 
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Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Do people really think there is a 10% hose and fuel pump and a different one for 15%. And a different one for 30% so on and so forth.
There. We agree on something. The same thing goes for OPE and recreational stuff. Instead of complying with the fuel that is available on the market, or even future-proofing something, it's easier to put garbage fuel system components on and then blame the fuel. I may have reasons to not want to use E15, E85, or even E10. Fine. That doesn't mean that OEMs can't provide something a little more robust. veryHeavy: Where is your source that CNG specific oils are required? I'm asking, too. Some oil companies do offer CNG and LPG specific motor oils, but I've never seen it adequately demonstrated that they are necessary. The taxis used ordinary conventional motor oil, despite sales pitches to the contrary.
The blender pumps I have dealt with, yes, there is a separate hose for each of the blends. So, yes, some people do believe there are separate hoses. At least those of us that have actually seen and used these pumps.
 
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Originally Posted By: veryHeavy
Anoth example: Honda's Civic Natural Gas.... it's basically identical to a normal civic. Except less horsepower. And it needs a different CNG-only oil, that is quite expensive, because normal oil doesn't work. Every design decision has compromises somewhere else.
From that specific owner's manual:
Quote:
Engine Oil Recommended • Genuine Honda Motor Oil 0W-20 • API Premium-grade 0W-20 detergent oil
If you are mistaken about/making that up what else are you making up?
 

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Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: veryHeavy
Anoth example: Honda's Civic Natural Gas.... it's basically identical to a normal civic. Except less horsepower. And it needs a different CNG-only oil, that is quite expensive, because normal oil doesn't work. Every design decision has compromises somewhere else.
From that specific owner's manual:
Quote:
Engine Oil Recommended • Genuine Honda Motor Oil 0W-20 • API Premium-grade 0W-20 detergent oil
If you are mistaken about/making that up what else are you making up?
Pretty much everything would be my guess....
 
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Originally Posted By: wemay
My Toyota allows up to E15 as do most i believe. Maybe it's a current development.
My 2016 Nissan OM specifically states that E15 will void the warranty.
 
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Originally Posted By: Tired
. The taxis used ordinary conventional motor oil, despite sales pitches to the contrary. The blender pumps I have dealt with, yes, there is a separate hose for each of the blends. So, yes, some people do believe there are separate hoses. At least those of us that have actually seen and used these pumps.
Fuel hose in the car. Fuel pump in the car. Non tech people believe a design can handle 10% but not 15%. Thats within the margin of error.
 
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Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: veryHeavy
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
"It wasn't designed to do that" is not technical. Thats a line of horse that you give to some stupid business major who thinks its a technical reason. Capiche?
Well I'm an engineer,
Not a very good one apparently. There have been several explanations here that there is no difference between hardware on a flex fuel and non flex fuel vehicles except for one sensor. Do people really think there is a 10% hose and fuel pump and a different one for 15%. And a different one for 30% so on and so forth. This is not complex or hard to do at all. The model t was the first flex fuel vehicle. But its too much trouble to do now?
SOME flex fuel vehicles need fuel system components changed, due to E85 needing to run richer.
 
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There's a post that claims GM trucks only need the sensor thast determines the percentage of ethanol. All other hasrdware is the same and the fuel map is already in the computer.
 
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Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: veryHeavy
Anoth example: Honda's Civic Natural Gas.... it's basically identical to a normal civic. Except less horsepower. And it needs a different CNG-only oil, that is quite expensive, because normal oil doesn't work. Every design decision has compromises somewhere else.
From that specific owner's manual:
Quote:
Engine Oil Recommended • Genuine Honda Motor Oil 0W-20 • API Premium-grade 0W-20 detergent oil
If you are mistaken about/making that up what else are you making up?
*crickets* No answer to this?
 
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Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
I said SOME, not ALL.
You must be a real peach to work with. What do you do? Yea its top secret right?
Dude, seriously...what is your major malfunction? Was your medication adjusted recently, or did you stop taking your Metamucil?
 
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Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
I said SOME, not ALL.
You must be a real peach to work with. What do you do? Yea its top secret right?
Dude, seriously...what is your major malfunction? Was your medication adjusted recently, or did you stop taking your Metamucil?
You have a job where you don't have to interact with people I suspect.
 

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Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
I said SOME, not ALL.
You must be a real peach to work with. What do you do? Yea its top secret right?
I think he drives a straight truck. Just based on some previous threads. shrug
 
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