5W-30 instead of 0W-20 for 2016 Toyota Camry 2.5 Hybrid

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I just don't think it is relevant because the manual says this is an example. It recommends 0W-20 and explicitly says 5W-20 can be used, but must be replaced with 0W-20 at the next change. That doesn't leave any room for higher viscosity oils.
You have no idea why it says that and why they put it in the manual exactly the way they do?

The amount of sheer ignorance as to why grade recommendations are put in the manuals the way they are put in there is just amazing. People think they are technical and related to mechanical reasons when it is anything but that.
 

Shel_B

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IMO, unless that Camry hybrid is seeing Lyft/Uber/Doordash service, 0W-20 is fine. Toyota hybrid engines crank the engine quicker and it doesn’t see redline. There are starts and stops though. They live a somewhat easier life. Oil consumption is a fact of life on Toyotas, best thing to prevent it is regular OCIs.
Yes, regular changes are important as is the interval: 5,000 miles or 6 months is a good place to start.
 

CleanSump

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Deleted. Nevermind.
Overkill, I appreciate your thoughts on the manual. I just think we'll have to disagree. Only Toyota would have the answer. So I've emailed Toyota to see if they respond.
 
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OVERKILL

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I just don't think it is relevant because the manual says this is an example. It recommends 0W-20 and explicitly says 5W-20 can be used, but must be replaced with 0W-20 at the next change. That doesn't leave any room for higher viscosity oils.
CAFE requires that only the grade used for obtaining the fuel economy figure be recommended in the manual.
 
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You are out of warranty however, what Toyota says straight from the manual below. There is no SAE 30 anything recommended nor authorized by Toyota. Yeah, a half dozen people will claim the manual says something else in spite of it being reproduced right in front of their eyes.
You choose; isToyota and their manual wrong and random guys on the internet and "Skippy" at random Store right?
View attachment 122469
According to that manual: "SAE 0W-20 is the best choice for good fuel economy and good starting in cold weather."

Nothing about possible engine damage from other grades, nothing about better wear protection by using 0W-20, nothing about potential variable valve system damages from other oil grades, etc. The manual clearly states what 0W-20 is good for. And it clearly states when a higher viscosity should be used due to 0W-20 not being the best choice for engine wear.
At the end of the day, once we consider reality, a 0W-40 will deliver same measurable MPG, but better wear protection across a wider range of load and duty cycles, without a need to switch to a higher grade.
 
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CAFE requires that only the grade used for obtaining the fuel economy figure be recommended in the manual.
Yes once you read a CAFE award letter you understand everything. You understand the language, the restrictions and the reasoning.

You also find out that it goes way beyond the manual language and extends to marketing, distribution and availability.
 
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Deleted. Nevermind.
Overkill, I appreciate your thoughts on the manual. I just think we'll have to disagree. Only Toyota would have the answer. So I've emailed Toyota to see if they respond.
It has absolutely, positively nothing to do with anything except for trying to assure the fuel economy results obtained in the EPA tests. There is no technical reason other than that. There are no other advantages to an oil with a lower HT/HS besides this, only disadvantages. Manufacturers are not that stupid to base those statements in their manual on nonexistent technical reasons.

If it was actually good for the engine in some mechanical way, engineers would’ve done it many years ago. It’s only been done to increase fuel economy. Which I’m not saying that’s always a bad thing, but unless that is your only and sole criteria then there are no advantages.
 
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Yes once you read a CAFE award letter you understand everything. You understand the language, the restrictions and the reasoning.

You also find out that it goes way beyond the manual language and extends to marketing, distribution and availability.
Attachment didn't work...
 

Jackson_Slugger

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How hot do these high-performance hybrid engines get? I mean when you track it does it ever get about 200F?
Horrible-Bosses-Drag-Racing.gif

IDK about the Camry, but I'd run 0W-20 in a hybrid for that reason alone. And as mentioned, does the parts guy realize it's frigging autumn?...
 

Jackson_Slugger

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It has absolutely, positively nothing to do with anything except for trying to assure the fuel economy results obtained in the EPA tests. There is no technical reason other than that. There are no other advantages to an oil with a lower HT/HS besides this, only disadvantages. Manufacturers are not that stupid to base those statements in their manual on nonexistent technical reasons.

If it was actually good for the engine in some mechanical way, engineers would’ve done it many years ago. It’s only been done to increase fuel economy. Which I’m not saying that’s always a bad thing, but unless that is your only and sole criteria then there are no advantages.
Didn't Gokhan post a study here showing lower wear rates with 0W-20 and 5W-20 over 5W-30 and above?

And in fact "engineers" did in fact recommend using 5W-20 in winter conditions in manuals as early as the 1960's...
 
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Didn't Gokhan post a study here showing lower wear rates with 0W-20 and 5W-20 over 5W-30 and above?

And in fact "engineers" did in fact recommend using 5W-20 in winter conditions in manuals as early as the 1960's...
Because of the changes in SAE J300, the 20-grades of yesteryear were not like today's grade. This is your fallacy here, those 20-grades were pre-HT/HS but were in the range of 2.8 to 3.0.

And I'd love to see that study that showed a lower HT/HS produces less wear. That runs contrary to physics, that keeping parts separated prevents wear. MOFT always wins.
 

Jackson_Slugger

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Because of the changes in SAE J300, the 20-grades of yesteryear were not at all like today's grade. This is your fallacy here, those 20-grades were pre-HTHS but were in the range of 2.8 to 3.0.

SAE20W or 5W-20? Because I guarantee the 5W-20's of yesteryear were horrible and should have been dropped the minute temps got much above freezing and were also "not recommended for sustained highway operation" out of winter. So I doubt we're talking about the same oils...
And I'd love to see that study that showed a lower HT/HS produces less wear. That runs contrary to physics, that keeping parts separated prevents wear.
I don't know, it was in a recently resurrected thread and he claimed it was probably due to better base oils used in thinner formulations. The one that also showed used oil also had initially lower wear rates over new so IDK.
 
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SAE20W or 5W-20? Because I guarantee the 5W-20's of yesteryear were horrible and should have been dropped the minute temps got much above freezing and were also "not recommended for sustained highway operation" out of winter. So I doubt we're talking about the same oils...

I don't know, it was in a recently resurrected thread and he claimed it was probably due to better base oils used in thinner formulations. The one that also showed used oil also had initially lower wear rates over new so IDK.
Any 20-grade. But horrible oils of the past were horrible for many other reasons besides viscosity and film thickness.

I do somewhat recall that post but I also recall the subsequent discussion where it was based on one isolated study or paper. Many papers claim things that do not withstand examination.
 
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Attachment didn't work...
Here was one instance I posted. There were others, some more recent. But it does explain the scope of the mandate and gives a clear explanation for why things are written the way they are. It's not because the oils are technically better (or mechanically required), it is solely a result of fuel economy requirements and monetary credits to the automaker:

 

OVERKILL

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SAE20W or 5W-20? Because I guarantee the 5W-20's of yesteryear were horrible and should have been dropped the minute temps got much above freezing and were also "not recommended for sustained highway operation" out of winter. So I doubt we're talking about the same oils...

I don't know, it was in a recently resurrected thread and he claimed it was probably due to better base oils used in thinner formulations. The one that also showed used oil also had initially lower wear rates over new so IDK.
Hey, the first Mobil 1 oil was a 5W-20, and probably close to a monograde, made with PAO, lol.
 

Jackson_Slugger

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Any 20-grade. But horrible oils of the past were horrible for many other reasons besides viscosity and film thickness.

I couldn't agree more, but I think the thinner we go the more marked the improvement. Even 5W-30 was once verboten for "sustained highway", but the improvements in base oils and polymers make the difference...

I do somewhat recall that post but I also recall the subsequent discussion where it was based on one isolated study or paper. Many papers claim things that do not withstand examination.

I think it was, and I am not saying that XW-20 is any means the best in all applications. But it is more than adequate in pedestrian engines and I think one of the things learned here is put more research into what powertrains one is buying rather than the appropriate lubricants. Kia-Hyundai may soon be losing $2 billion or more, just for engine defects/recalls. Now, their transmissions are coming under scrutiny....
 
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Jackson_Slugger

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Hey, the first Mobil 1 oil was a 5W-20, and probably close to a monograde, made with PAO, lol.

Yeah, wondering if it could have been listed as a 5W-30 today. Perhaps the weight was chosen because the initial 5W-20's were marked as specifically winter oils only mainly in GM's in the 1960's. I had always assumed that multi-weight oils only came about in the late 60's or around 1970, but my father changed oil at a garage in the early 60's and used 5/10W-30/40 in a lot of cars....

I'd love to see a VOA on the OG Mobil 1 5W-20. I'm guessing it was a thick 20 or even could be a very thin 30 today...
 
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Yeah, wondering if it could have been listed as a 5W-30 today. Perhaps the weight was chosen because the initial 5W-20's were marked as specifically winter oils only mainly in GM's in the 1960's. I had always assumed that multi-weight oils only came about in the late 60's or around 1970, but my father changed oil at a garage in the early 60's and used 5/10W-30/40 in a lot of cars....
I remember discussons on here in the past. I don’t know if this is all there was but they do go into some detail:

 
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Why not just move to 0W-30?
Likely poor HTFS and we don't know if the OP lives where a 0W is suggested.

At 32deg.F, a 0W30 and 5W30 engine oil could easily report the same viscosity. So what benefit ?

Cloud point and gell point here occur at or below -20deg.F

I don't even dare go out of the cabin in those temps.

-15deg.F was my last time venturing out to commute to work over a decade ago, and the waterpump seal gave out and the hitachi alternator bearings failed. That engine was not happy.
 
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