4 Cyl. engines and front wheel drive cars

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Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
People don't care about a lot of things. Most couldn't care less about the engine and tranny dipstick, real coolant temp. and other gauges. Most just want a big dummy light, actually most would probably want an extra LSD screen instead of all those pesky lights.
Going after the lowest common denominator is hardly a proof of a superior design. In practice, it proves to achieve the opposite. That is, unneeded system complexity, additional cost for initial purchase cost of operation and servicing afterwards, just so that people can be even dumber behind the steering wheel.


Then feel free to buy the cheapest, lowest tech vehicle you can find and enjoy it to the maximum extent possible. I'm sure you can find a '60's Mustang somewhere in decent enough shape made entirely of components that can all easily be rebuilt in your garage. If you want something more modern a Geo Metro is pretty simple, although it does have fuel injection and air conditioning.

Objectively, a gearbox that can swap gears faster than you can move your arm packaged with more gears allowing for greater fuel economy is a superior design. That you prefer more involvement behind the wheel doesn't change the numbers.

Well, to judge a superior design, you have to compare them to the same criteria. We don't all have the same criteria we judge a transmission with, so you can't say an ATX is a better design overall. An ATX is better in many measures, but so is an MTX, just depends which criteria are important to you.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Well, to judge a superior design, you have to compare them to the same criteria. We don't all have the same criteria we judge a transmission with, so you can't say an ATX is a better design overall. An ATX is better in many measures, but so is an MTX, just depends which criteria are important to you.


Absolutely agreed, that is totally fair.
 
Besides here on BITOG no one in the country wants a manual. That ship sailed 25 years ago, only 3.9% of NEW cars sold in the US in 2013 were equipped with a manual transmission.
 
Originally Posted By: R2d2
Besides here on BITOG no one in the country wants a manual. That ship sailed 25 years ago, only 3.9% of NEW cars sold in the US in 2013 were equipped with a manual transmission.


Part of that is self-fulfilling. Automakers are pushing ATXs for higher profit margins and only offering sticks on base models that don't have the options people really want. If MTXs were offered in all models of cars, the sales volume would increase drastically.
 
Originally Posted By: badtlc
If MTXs were offered in all models of cars, the sales volume would increase drastically.


What are you basing this theory on?
 
Originally Posted By: R2d2
Besides here on BITOG no one in the country wants a manual. That ship sailed 25 years ago, only 3.9% of NEW cars sold in the US in 2013 were equipped with a manual transmission.

That stat is a bit misleading. Over half the vehicles sold in the US are "light trucks"(pickups, SUVs, minivans). And then lots of midsize and large cars don't offer a manual either, or hybrids. So out of the car sales where a manual is an option, the uptake is atleast over 10%, maybe 15-20%?
Up here, I'm sure the manual rate is even higher. Anyways, I'm not giving up yet.
 
Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: badtlc
If MTXs were offered in all models of cars, the sales volume would increase drastically.


What are you basing this theory on?

I don't know if would drastically more, but if it was an option to save $1k on a vehicle, that would sway a certain percentage of new car buyers alone.
 
It might sway some, but many times the OEM's play games, only offering stick on the basest of base models it seems. Want four tires on your car? Gotta get the automatic too.
 
Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I just saying if the gearing was equal, a MTX would give better real world mileage with a driver that knows what to do. Maybe a few percent? Many ATX's can now out accelerate a MTX with faster shifts though, but I suppose a sequential mtx, like in rally cars, would be near equal.


I don't disagree with that, but we have what we have. I'm not so well researched on the subject that I can rattle off a list of cars with good ATXs that can hang with the MTXs, but I do know that the ATX in the GTI is both more fuel efficient and faster than the MTX. The difference is marginal, but the point is that technology is developed to the point where a good ATX can hang.

I understand that for every GTI there are probably 100 turdbox econo-cars with slushboxes running low tech ATXs that could be from 20 years ago that are slow, inefficient, and miserable to operate. But in the good cars, ATXs are starting to hit the marks.


Is your GTI equipped with the DSG transmission? This is technically a dual clutch transmission which is different than the typical ATX slush boxes. DDGs shift faster and actually makes metal to metal contact like a manual transmission verses fluid pressure contact with a traditional automatic. It's the middle ground between MTX and ATX.
 
Originally Posted By: gregoron

Is your GTI equipped with the DSG transmission? This is technically a dual clutch transmission which is different than the typical ATX slush boxes. DDGs shift faster and actually makes metal to metal contact like a manual transmission verses fluid pressure contact with a traditional automatic. It's the middle ground between MTX and ATX.


Nope, mine has a manual clutch (I greatly prefer them for sporty cars). I know that DSG isn't a traditional type of ATX, but it is an example of a modern, more advanced ATX that is capable of really good performance.
 
Originally Posted By: Mykl


Nope, mine has a manual clutch (I greatly prefer them for sporty cars). I know that DSG isn't a traditional type of ATX, but it is an example of a modern, more advanced ATX that is capable of really good performance.


I've always preferred manual transmission over automatics. I thought that DSG would convert me to eventually switch to one. But, I read that changing its transmission oil costs a lot at 40k mile intervals. You can't also disengage the clutch while in gear.

My dream ATX would be those similar to F1 cars, or motolrbikes. It would be a sequential clutched tranny that you could disengage the clutch while pressing a button or lifting a lever.
 
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Originally Posted By: Mykl

Nope, mine has a manual clutch (I greatly prefer them for sporty cars). I know that DSG isn't a traditional type of ATX, but it is an example of a modern, more advanced ATX that is capable of really good performance.


Save the manuals!
 
Originally Posted By: gregoron
Originally Posted By: Mykl


Nope, mine has a manual clutch (I greatly prefer them for sporty cars). I know that DSG isn't a traditional type of ATX, but it is an example of a modern, more advanced ATX that is capable of really good performance.


I've always preferred manual transmission over automatics. I thought that DSG would convert me to eventually switch to one. But, I read that changing its transmission oil costs a lot at 40k mile intervals. You can't also disengage the clutch while in gear.

My dream ATX would be those similar to F1 cars, or motolrbikes. It would be a sequential clutched tranny that you could disengage the clutch while pressing a button or lifting a lever.

Sure, changing the fluid on a DSG transmission is costly, but some of the new 8-speed automatics cost even more for a fluid change. Although the manufacturers say that the new fluid is a "lifetime fill" how can we actually be sure that the fluid doesn't need to be changed.
 
2013 Accord 4cyl CVT Coupe w/14,000 miles.
Love it.
If you keep the rpms below 2200 (70 mph)34.5 mpg average is easy. The computer will nearly lug the engine if you light foot the gas pedal.

Understanding how a CVT works and keeping the engine @ 1700 rpm allowing the car to gain speed from a stop is my key to mpgs.

Made in Maryville Ohio,,,if that still has any merit.

http://www.hondainamerica.com/manufacturing
 
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I think 4 cyls these days are actually much more reliable and easier to work on than 6 cyl, due to lower output and everything being easy to access. I'll never buy a 6 cyl car if 4 cyl is available for the model.

FWD is also more about which power train and brand than just 4 vs 6 cyl. Look at Corolla, Camry, Civic, and Accord, they are all more reliable on 4 cyl than many RWD.
 
Originally Posted By: gregoron
I've always preferred manual transmission over automatics. I thought that DSG would convert me to eventually switch to one. But, I read that changing its transmission oil costs a lot at 40k mile intervals. You can't also disengage the clutch while in gear.

My dream ATX would be those similar to F1 cars, or motolrbikes. It would be a sequential clutched tranny that you could disengage the clutch while pressing a button or lifting a lever.


DSG maintenance is not so bad if you do it yourself. It does add cost and an additional maintenance item though.

I found another car with a modern auto that can hang, the new Mini Cooper S. The ATX gets much better fuel economy (MTX 23/37, ATX 28/40), and it's marginally faster (barely, almost not enough to be worth mentioning).

I'd still get the manual, but the ATX makes a very good case for itself in this car.
 
If anyone wants to see the basic concept of how CVT works, look under the seat of a gas powered golf cart.

Very simple design. Also when you step on the gas, its a constant drone as well while the speed ramps up, akin to motorboating.

Starting in 87, Subaru Justy's came with an ECVT.
 
If you need a midsize car, avoid the current-generation Malibu. Too small compared to its competitors.

And yes, four cylinders have come a long way in terms of power delivered.

I can sympathize - my wife was worried about giving up her V8 SUV because the V8 is "soooo powerful". She was surprised with the pep in the FWD V6 van.
 
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