2015 BMW N20 X1 UOA 5K MILES NON-EURO OIL: ROUND 2

KEVINK0000

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Yes, the Boron number is interesting. Also, does anyone have a really good understanding of the oxidation number? I have searched for a good explanation of how to interpret it, but time hasn't allowed a good explanation to arise.
 
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Yes, the Boron number is interesting. Also, does anyone have a really good understanding of the oxidation number? I have searched for a good explanation of how to interpret it, but time hasn't allowed a good explanation to arise.
Does lab have any explanation of numbers? Rule is that if TAN is higher than TBN, trouble starts. In your case that is drastic.
 
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TBN/TAN ratio is skewed towards higher acidity. Oxidation number is high, yet viscosity did not trend higher. As I understand it as oxidation increases viscosity will also increase. In this case oxidative thickening hasn't started when it does occur it could be severe or gradual. It's hard to tell if the viscosity would be lower w/out the oxidative thickening? Basically the oil has mechanically sheared under a 30w but because of the oxidation it has remained within grade.

IMO the oil has reached its limit at 8,500 miles. The 10k factory OCI might be a stretch with this non-euro spec lube.
 
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TBN/TAN ratio is skewed towards higher acidity. Oxidation number is high, yet viscosity did not trend higher. As I understand it as oxidation increases viscosity will also increase. In this case oxidative thickening hasn't started but when it does occur it could be severe or gradual.

IMO the oil has reached its limit at 8,500 miles.
I am confused with that reading and point of this exercise. Oil is done. Period.
But, there is always cheap N20 laying around every corner.
 
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I am confused with that reading and point of this exercise.
IIRC it's to prove that BMW engines won't spontaneously blow up when the incorrect oil is selected. In any case as I've always said performance is measured over time and this fill still didn't go one full 10k interval let alone multiples of 10k intervals.

I think the engine has over 100k miles on it.
 
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IIRC it's to prove that BMW engines won't spontaneously blow up when the incorrect oil is selected. In any case as I've always said performance is measured over time and this fill still didn't go one full 10k interval let alone multiples of 10k intervals.

I think the engine has over 100k miles on it.
No engine spontaneously blow up bcs. wrong oil. But, what happens is things like VANOS, timing chain guides happen before engine death.
 

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TBN/TAN ratio is skewed towards higher acidity. Oxidation number is high, yet viscosity did not trend higher. As I understand it as oxidation increases viscosity will also increase. In this case oxidative thickening hasn't started when it does occur it could be severe or gradual. It's hard to tell if the viscosity would be lower w/out the oxidative thickening? Basically the oil has mechanically sheared under a 30w but because of the oxidation it has remained within grade.

IMO the oil has reached its limit at 8,500 miles. The 10k factory OCI might be a stretch with this non-euro spec lube.
Yes, I suspect we are observing mechanical shear taking place at a rate higher than viscosity is increasing from oxidation.

Gokhan estimated the BOV for this oil at 6.8cSt.

Looking at the TBN and oxidation, this oil is beyond done.
 
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Help me out here, where is the boron going?
I don't know where it's going, but it does seem to be universal that it depletes with miles. Here's a copy/paste from my post on page 7, with TBN added for fun:
Supertech FS HM 5W20 Boron :
Virgin: 240 (TBN 6.9)
Two UOAs on my 03 Civic
517 miles: 186 (no TBN)
3515 miles: 88 (TBN 3.8)

On an '18 CRV with M1 EP 0W20
Virgin: 75 (TBN 7.0)
4323 miles: 35 (TBN 2.9)

On an '06 Infiniti M45 with M1 0W40
Virgin: 313 (TBN 9.7)
4732 miles: 150 (TBN 5.6)

Same M45 with Castrol Edge 0W40
Virgin: 82 (TBN 9.2)
4341 miles: 65 (TBN 5.0)

Same M45 with Supertech FS 5W30
Virgin: 228 (TBN 7.4)
3961 miles: 41 (TBN 2.4)

'08 Ranger 3.0 with ST FS HM 5W20:
Virgin: 240 (TBN 6.9)
2631 miles: 118 (TBN 2.2)
 
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I don't know where it's going, but it does seem to be universal that it depletes with miles. Here's a copy/paste from my post on page 7, with TBN added for fun:
Supertech FS HM 5W20 Boron :
Virgin: 240 (TBN 6.9)
Two UOAs on my 03 Civic
517 miles: 186 (no TBN)
3515 miles: 88 (TBN 3.8)

On an '18 CRV with M1 EP 0W20
Virgin: 75 (TBN 7.0)
4323 miles: 35 (TBN 2.9)

On an '06 Infiniti M45 with M1 0W40
Virgin: 313 (TBN 9.7)
4732 miles: 150 (TBN 5.6)

Same M45 with Castrol Edge 0W40
Virgin: 82 (TBN 9.2)
4341 miles: 65 (TBN 5.0)

Same M45 with Supertech FS 5W30
Virgin: 228 (TBN 7.4)
3961 miles: 41 (TBN 2.4)

'08 Ranger 3.0 with ST FS HM 5W20:
Virgin: 240 (TBN 6.9)
2631 miles: 118 (TBN 2.2)
Well it’s not transmuting into another element so either it’s going out the tailpipe or it’s accumulating in the engine somehow as a permanent deposit.
 

KEVINK0000

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TBN/TAN ratio is skewed towards higher acidity. Oxidation number is high, yet viscosity did not trend higher. As I understand it as oxidation increases viscosity will also increase. In this case oxidative thickening hasn't started when it does occur it could be severe or gradual. It's hard to tell if the viscosity would be lower w/out the oxidative thickening? Basically the oil has mechanically sheared under a 30w but because of the oxidation it has remained within grade.

IMO the oil has reached its limit at 8,500 miles. The 10k factory OCI might be a stretch with this non-euro spec lube.
This OCI length was a mistake, I never like going over 5k in any engine, and would never consider 10k in this engine regardless of oil. At 5k this oil does well in my opinion, esp. when compared to other UOA with Euro certified oils in this engine, some of which I have posted on previous pages. (I know you can't compare, etc. Heard it all before, so save it. I take a different view. ) At 8k plus, it was done, to be sure, but that is almost double the OCI I feel is prudent in this car and usage pattern, again regardless of oil or cert. To each his own, I just do not like long drains personally.
 
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This OCI length was a mistake, I never like going over 5k in any engine, and would never consider 10k in this engine regardless of oil. At 5k this oil does well in my opinion, esp. when compared to other UOA with Euro certified oils in this engine, some of which I have posted on previous pages. (I know you can't compare, etc. Heard it all before, so save it. I take a different view. ) At 8k plus, it was done, to be sure, but that is almost double the OCI I feel is prudent in this car and usage pattern, again regardless of oil or cert. To each his own, I just do not like long drains personally.
I get it.

Your fill is has an HTHS of no less than 2.9 based on the Dex1Gen3 cert so it's probably similar to LL01FE in that regard just without the add pack and VII's to go the distance of 10k miles in a BMW engine. You're definitely paying for a 5k mile oil.

Mike Miller always said decades ago you could run 40w conventional in a BMW as long as your changed it every 3k miles.
 

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This OCI length was a mistake, I never like going over 5k in any engine, and would never consider 10k in this engine regardless of oil. At 5k this oil does well in my opinion, esp. when compared to other UOA with Euro certified oils in this engine, some of which I have posted on previous pages. (I know you can't compare, etc. Heard it all before, so save it. I take a different view. ) At 8k plus, it was done, to be sure, but that is almost double the OCI I feel is prudent in this car and usage pattern, again regardless of oil or cert. To each his own, I just do not like long drains personally.
If willful ignorance on the use of the tool is the route taken, then there's essentially zero value in having these exchanges. Understanding the scope and purpose of spectrographic analysis is fundamental to properly using it.

If one is insistent on forming conclusions derived from data that is outside the scope of its utility; if the purpose here is an emotion pursuit of "feel good" propped up by fantasy, then by all means proceed, but I think that's an incredibly foolish exercise to undertake.

So, on that note, since this has been clearly articulated, I will bow-out from participating in these threads going forward, as will I suspect @kschachn.
 
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To be determined.
Only if your engine is either a particle accelerator or a nuclear reactor. Reading back on your posts here I realize you like to eschew physics but in this case there aren’t a lot of alternatives. If it’s progressively decreasing from the spectrographic analysis then it’s being eliminated from the engine or it’s staying behind. One or the other.
 
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Only if your engine is either a particle accelerator or a nuclear reactor. Reading back on your posts here I realize you like to eschew physics but in this case there aren’t a lot of alternatives. If it’s progressively decreasing from the spectrographic analysis then it’s being eliminated from the engine or it’s staying behind. One or the other.
I took his comment as "to be determined" whether it's going out the tailpipe or it’s accumulating in the engine somehow as a permanent deposit. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think he meant that it's something other than those two options.

What I find interesting is if the drop in Boron (from a known virgin value) could somehow be used as an approximation of TBN (in the absence of getting a TBN). Does that seem plausible at all? I'm nowhere near an expert in either chemistry or oil tribology, so if it seems like a dumb question, I'm sorry.
 

KEVINK0000

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I get it.

Your fill is has an HTHS of no less than 2.9 based on the Dex1Gen3 cert so it's probably similar to LL01FE in that regard just without the add pack and VII's to go the distance of 10k miles in a BMW engine. You're definitely paying for a 5k mile oil.

Mike Miller always said decades ago you could run 40w conventional in a BMW as long as your changed it every 3k miles.
There is one UOA I posted earlier that was the factory fill in a Euro delivery car with the N20, and it looked like the FF was 20wt.

I agree with the monograde comment, and it applies for most, if not all engines, but not all climates, ha ha!

Monogrades still have their place, even today.
 

KEVINK0000

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If willful ignorance on the use of the tool is the route taken, then there's essentially zero value in having these exchanges. Understanding the scope and purpose of spectrographic analysis is fundamental to properly using it.

If one is insistent on forming conclusions derived from data that is outside the scope of its utility; if the purpose here is an emotion pursuit of "feel good" propped up by fantasy, then by all means proceed, but I think that's an incredibly foolish exercise to undertake.

So, on that note, since this has been clearly articulated, I will bow-out from participating in these threads going forward, as will I suspect @kschachn.
No problem. I suspect you will be back at some point. I mean this with no antagonism: Your comment and framing is telling.
 
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