Good afternoon fellas. Been looking for a small economy car for commuting as a work car. Found a 2002 and a 2005. Both have automatic transmission with the 2.2 engine. The '05 is an eco-tec, while the '02 isn't? Can anybody confirm? My question concerns the long term reliability/dependability of this model and if they have any known issue's. Stay cool, and TIA for your thoughts.
2002 and 2005 Pontiac Sunfire
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the ecotec is more lively and more refined. but is also more complicated the ohv 2.2 is not as refined or as lively but is a great engine its stupid simple to work on and very reliable. i imagine they both have the 4speed auto. which is a good transmission.
My yougest brother had a 2004 cavalier as his first car. Very tough and reliable.Good power for the size, good highway mpg... Plus the best part if the ecotecs is the cartridge oil filters . Not knowing the mileage of these vehicles, I cant say for sure which one id buy.
Id go for the 05 unless the 02 is priced right just based on engine type.
Id go for the 05 unless the 02 is priced right just based on engine type.
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Which ever one in best shape is the one that I would choose.
If there is not much of a difference, I choose the Ecotec one. (Helps I have 2 of them) Easy as pie to change the oil (cartridge filter) and you get 140hp instead of 115hp.
Change the oil (and keep up on things), and they will run forever..
Let me know any questions..
If there is not much of a difference, I choose the Ecotec one. (Helps I have 2 of them) Easy as pie to change the oil (cartridge filter) and you get 140hp instead of 115hp.
Change the oil (and keep up on things), and they will run forever..
Let me know any questions..
Either engine will run for a very long time while delivering good fuel economy and no power.
A nominal 140 bhp Ecotec 2.2 is no match for a nominal 130 bhp 2.2 Honda, for example.
Solid cars and solid engines.
Nothing sexy or exciting, but pretty hard to beat as commuters, especially at the prices these things sell for.
Buy whichever one has good maintenance history, or appears to have been better kept.
If one of them is a one-owner car, buy it unless it's obviously trashed.
A nominal 140 bhp Ecotec 2.2 is no match for a nominal 130 bhp 2.2 Honda, for example.
Solid cars and solid engines.
Nothing sexy or exciting, but pretty hard to beat as commuters, especially at the prices these things sell for.
Buy whichever one has good maintenance history, or appears to have been better kept.
If one of them is a one-owner car, buy it unless it's obviously trashed.
post pics and all the info you can on both please
We have a 03 sunfire, which was the first year for the ecotec. Motor runs good, trans has been fine.
Everything else has gone bad on the car, plenty of electrical problems that left the headlights dim. We had to rewire the headlights and fog lights completely because the design allowed water into the harness, rotting everything out.
Did two wheel bearings because the electrical abs portion of the bearing failed, causing a check engine light. The bearing itself was fine however.
The fuel pump just went out on it, even though I changed the fuel filter every 2 years.
Also I replaced the entire front suspension, including strut mounts, and struts.
Right after that the motor for the power window went out.
I would not recommend one of these cars, ours only has 80k miles on it also.
I have a 03 Saturn Ion which has been mostly trouble free, and has 100k on it now.
If you have a little more money, take a look at a cobalt, or an 05+ ion. They are much better built cars, but will carry a real low price tag.
Everything else has gone bad on the car, plenty of electrical problems that left the headlights dim. We had to rewire the headlights and fog lights completely because the design allowed water into the harness, rotting everything out.
Did two wheel bearings because the electrical abs portion of the bearing failed, causing a check engine light. The bearing itself was fine however.
The fuel pump just went out on it, even though I changed the fuel filter every 2 years.
Also I replaced the entire front suspension, including strut mounts, and struts.
Right after that the motor for the power window went out.
I would not recommend one of these cars, ours only has 80k miles on it also.
I have a 03 Saturn Ion which has been mostly trouble free, and has 100k on it now.
If you have a little more money, take a look at a cobalt, or an 05+ ion. They are much better built cars, but will carry a real low price tag.
Ecotec...but I am biased against the OHV 2.2 engines.
The used car lot I worked at sold a LOT of S10s, Cavaliers and Sunfires that would come back in with cracked cylinder heads. The lot owner would buy a $175.00 cylinder head and $50.00 Detroit head gasket kit (Corteco gasket now I think) and add $1000 to their note.
We did a lot of them. Almost always with that chunk of head missing between the intake and exhaust valve on at least one cylinder.
The alternator is mounted very close to the exhaust manifold and the GM CS-series alternator wasn't that reliable to begin with. Bake it good and proper with the manifold and it becomes less reliable. I would often get tasked with changing these to free up the actual mechanic to change cylinder heads on Cavaliers and transmissions on Caravans. Fortunately it's a very easy task. I felt bad for the buyers who were getting dug into a deeper economic hole for a $100 alternator.
Heater cores were manufactured from compressed garbage and virtually guaranteed to fail early. I can't recall how many came in trade that had the heater hose looped behind the engine to by-pass the leaky heater core but it was a significant number.
I do like the Cobalt better. It's still not much of a car, but it was better than the Cavalier. I like the Grand Am even better. The Grand Am does has some problems but it is at least an interesting car.
The used car lot I worked at sold a LOT of S10s, Cavaliers and Sunfires that would come back in with cracked cylinder heads. The lot owner would buy a $175.00 cylinder head and $50.00 Detroit head gasket kit (Corteco gasket now I think) and add $1000 to their note.
We did a lot of them. Almost always with that chunk of head missing between the intake and exhaust valve on at least one cylinder.
The alternator is mounted very close to the exhaust manifold and the GM CS-series alternator wasn't that reliable to begin with. Bake it good and proper with the manifold and it becomes less reliable. I would often get tasked with changing these to free up the actual mechanic to change cylinder heads on Cavaliers and transmissions on Caravans. Fortunately it's a very easy task. I felt bad for the buyers who were getting dug into a deeper economic hole for a $100 alternator.
Heater cores were manufactured from compressed garbage and virtually guaranteed to fail early. I can't recall how many came in trade that had the heater hose looped behind the engine to by-pass the leaky heater core but it was a significant number.
I do like the Cobalt better. It's still not much of a car, but it was better than the Cavalier. I like the Grand Am even better. The Grand Am does has some problems but it is at least an interesting car.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Ecotec...but I am biased against the OHV 2.2 engines.
The used car lot I worked at sold a LOT of S10s, Cavaliers and Sunfires that would come back in with cracked cylinder heads. The lot owner would buy a $175.00 cylinder head and $50.00 Detroit head gasket kit (Corteco gasket now I think) and add $1000 to their note.
We did a lot of them. Almost always with that chunk of head missing between the intake and exhaust valve on at least one cylinder.
The alternator is mounted very close to the exhaust manifold and the GM CS-series alternator wasn't that reliable to begin with. Bake it good and proper with the manifold and it becomes less reliable. I would often get tasked with changing these to free up the actual mechanic to change cylinder heads on Cavaliers and transmissions on Caravans. Fortunately it's a very easy task. I felt bad for the buyers who were getting dug into a deeper economic hole for a $100 alternator.
Heater cores were manufactured from compressed garbage and virtually guaranteed to fail early. I can't recall how many came in trade that had the heater hose looped behind the engine to by-pass the leaky heater core but it was a significant number.
I do like the Cobalt better. It's still not much of a car, but it was better than the Cavalier. I like the Grand Am even better. The Grand Am does has some problems but it is at least an interesting car.
CS series alternator? They quit using that in 94 or 95. Any 2.2 OHV after 96ish is fine unless you overheat it - you're guaranteed to blow the head gasket but the head is usually okay.
Ecotec...but I am biased against the OHV 2.2 engines.
The used car lot I worked at sold a LOT of S10s, Cavaliers and Sunfires that would come back in with cracked cylinder heads. The lot owner would buy a $175.00 cylinder head and $50.00 Detroit head gasket kit (Corteco gasket now I think) and add $1000 to their note.
We did a lot of them. Almost always with that chunk of head missing between the intake and exhaust valve on at least one cylinder.
The alternator is mounted very close to the exhaust manifold and the GM CS-series alternator wasn't that reliable to begin with. Bake it good and proper with the manifold and it becomes less reliable. I would often get tasked with changing these to free up the actual mechanic to change cylinder heads on Cavaliers and transmissions on Caravans. Fortunately it's a very easy task. I felt bad for the buyers who were getting dug into a deeper economic hole for a $100 alternator.
Heater cores were manufactured from compressed garbage and virtually guaranteed to fail early. I can't recall how many came in trade that had the heater hose looped behind the engine to by-pass the leaky heater core but it was a significant number.
I do like the Cobalt better. It's still not much of a car, but it was better than the Cavalier. I like the Grand Am even better. The Grand Am does has some problems but it is at least an interesting car.
CS series alternator? They quit using that in 94 or 95. Any 2.2 OHV after 96ish is fine unless you overheat it - you're guaranteed to blow the head gasket but the head is usually okay.
after 98 the 2.2 had a lot less head issues most of it was a bad gasket or warping the head.other than that they were pretty good. the 02 will likely never have a head issue and if it does its a 3-4 hour job max with only hand tools. when the ecotec came out it had oiling issues for the timing chain but by 05 they were trouble free get the one that the best overall. either can be a great car fuel pumps and alternators are common and so are power window motors but thats just typical gm.
Thank you for your comments. Both cars are at 2 different local Chevrolet dealers, and as such are over priced, imo. The '05 has 57,000 miles, price is $7200. The '02 has 80,000 miles and not sure of the price yet. Both cars have all popular common options and are nice, clean cars.
Originally Posted By: JustinH
We have a 03 sunfire, which was the first year for the ecotec. Motor runs good, trans has been fine.
Everything else has gone bad on the car, plenty of electrical problems that left the headlights dim. We had to rewire the headlights and fog lights completely because the design allowed water into the harness, rotting everything out.
Did two wheel bearings because the electrical abs portion of the bearing failed, causing a check engine light. The bearing itself was fine however.
The fuel pump just went out on it, even though I changed the fuel filter every 2 years.
Also I replaced the entire front suspension, including strut mounts, and struts.
Right after that the motor for the power window went out.
I would not recommend one of these cars, ours only has 80k miles on it also.
I have a 03 Saturn Ion which has been mostly trouble free, and has 100k on it now.
If you have a little more money, take a look at a cobalt, or an 05+ ion. They are much better built cars, but will carry a real low price tag.
Not surprised about the foglights...strange common issue on the late Fires.
I'm truly amazed that your fuel pump lasted that long. GM got a HUGE batch of fuel pumps in late 02/early 03. I have yet to see a fuel pump built that model year last long. Most did not make it two years. Huge issue... Even with great care, 03 Cav's pump almost made it to five years. Sadly, they die early, no matter what you do. Sadly, we just changed the FF on ours just a few days before..
Not sure I'll call em' junk though. The Fuel pump is the only thing I've replaced in 9 years. Granted, I bought base models with very few toys, so I'm sure that helped...
We have a 03 sunfire, which was the first year for the ecotec. Motor runs good, trans has been fine.
Everything else has gone bad on the car, plenty of electrical problems that left the headlights dim. We had to rewire the headlights and fog lights completely because the design allowed water into the harness, rotting everything out.
Did two wheel bearings because the electrical abs portion of the bearing failed, causing a check engine light. The bearing itself was fine however.
The fuel pump just went out on it, even though I changed the fuel filter every 2 years.
Also I replaced the entire front suspension, including strut mounts, and struts.
Right after that the motor for the power window went out.
I would not recommend one of these cars, ours only has 80k miles on it also.
I have a 03 Saturn Ion which has been mostly trouble free, and has 100k on it now.
If you have a little more money, take a look at a cobalt, or an 05+ ion. They are much better built cars, but will carry a real low price tag.
Not surprised about the foglights...strange common issue on the late Fires.
I'm truly amazed that your fuel pump lasted that long. GM got a HUGE batch of fuel pumps in late 02/early 03. I have yet to see a fuel pump built that model year last long. Most did not make it two years. Huge issue... Even with great care, 03 Cav's pump almost made it to five years. Sadly, they die early, no matter what you do. Sadly, we just changed the FF on ours just a few days before..
Not sure I'll call em' junk though. The Fuel pump is the only thing I've replaced in 9 years. Granted, I bought base models with very few toys, so I'm sure that helped...
My friends 02 sunfire se just died on him, front subframe rotted through, maybe it was a k member? He had it for about 6 years, his mother bought it just off lease in 06 and he used it for about a year as his beater, and in the past 6 mos put about 35k on it using it for delivery. It was a very reliable car for him.
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Ecotec...but I am biased against the OHV 2.2 engines.
The used car lot I worked at sold a LOT of S10s, Cavaliers and Sunfires that would come back in with cracked cylinder heads. The lot owner would buy a $175.00 cylinder head and $50.00 Detroit head gasket kit (Corteco gasket now I think) and add $1000 to their note.
We did a lot of them. Almost always with that chunk of head missing between the intake and exhaust valve on at least one cylinder.
The alternator is mounted very close to the exhaust manifold and the GM CS-series alternator wasn't that reliable to begin with. Bake it good and proper with the manifold and it becomes less reliable. I would often get tasked with changing these to free up the actual mechanic to change cylinder heads on Cavaliers and transmissions on Caravans. Fortunately it's a very easy task. I felt bad for the buyers who were getting dug into a deeper economic hole for a $100 alternator.
Heater cores were manufactured from compressed garbage and virtually guaranteed to fail early. I can't recall how many came in trade that had the heater hose looped behind the engine to by-pass the leaky heater core but it was a significant number.
I do like the Cobalt better. It's still not much of a car, but it was better than the Cavalier. I like the Grand Am even better. The Grand Am does has some problems but it is at least an interesting car.
CS series alternator? They quit using that in 94 or 95. Any 2.2 OHV after 96ish is fine unless you overheat it - you're guaranteed to blow the head gasket but the head is usually okay.
I've been at my current job for over 10 years now so it's been awhile since I installed for the tote-the-note lot. I would have been dealing with older Cavaliers. Perhaps that fuels my bias against them. I do remember several of the '95+ body styles having the same problems I described above but I didn't check to see if the chunk of cylinder head was missing. A reman head may have not been necessary, but then again it was only $175. (a new head was only like $400 back in '98-'00)
One '95+ Z24 had the heater core leak. The purchaser had dumped so much Alumaseal in the cooling system that it plugged the core completely. Didn't stop the leak but clogged up the heater core. We picked at the packed in Alumaseal with a #1 Phillips and wondered if the radiator would flow enough in the summer.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Ecotec...but I am biased against the OHV 2.2 engines.
The used car lot I worked at sold a LOT of S10s, Cavaliers and Sunfires that would come back in with cracked cylinder heads. The lot owner would buy a $175.00 cylinder head and $50.00 Detroit head gasket kit (Corteco gasket now I think) and add $1000 to their note.
We did a lot of them. Almost always with that chunk of head missing between the intake and exhaust valve on at least one cylinder.
The alternator is mounted very close to the exhaust manifold and the GM CS-series alternator wasn't that reliable to begin with. Bake it good and proper with the manifold and it becomes less reliable. I would often get tasked with changing these to free up the actual mechanic to change cylinder heads on Cavaliers and transmissions on Caravans. Fortunately it's a very easy task. I felt bad for the buyers who were getting dug into a deeper economic hole for a $100 alternator.
Heater cores were manufactured from compressed garbage and virtually guaranteed to fail early. I can't recall how many came in trade that had the heater hose looped behind the engine to by-pass the leaky heater core but it was a significant number.
I do like the Cobalt better. It's still not much of a car, but it was better than the Cavalier. I like the Grand Am even better. The Grand Am does has some problems but it is at least an interesting car.
CS series alternator? They quit using that in 94 or 95. Any 2.2 OHV after 96ish is fine unless you overheat it - you're guaranteed to blow the head gasket but the head is usually okay.
I've been at my current job for over 10 years now so it's been awhile since I installed for the tote-the-note lot. I would have been dealing with older Cavaliers. Perhaps that fuels my bias against them. I do remember several of the '95+ body styles having the same problems I described above but I didn't check to see if the chunk of cylinder head was missing. A reman head may have not been necessary, but then again it was only $175. (a new head was only like $400 back in '98-'00)
One '95+ Z24 had the heater core leak. The purchaser had dumped so much Alumaseal in the cooling system that it plugged the core completely. Didn't stop the leak but clogged up the heater core. We picked at the packed in Alumaseal with a #1 Phillips and wondered if the radiator would flow enough in the summer.
Then there's the timing chains. The tensioner is a simple metal leaf spring type arrangement with a nylon piece that pushes the chain. Remarkably simple design but I've heard a large number of OHV 2200s that sound like diesels because of the timing chain and/or tensioner.
To their credit, they will run like that for what seems like a long time. rattle rattle rattle rattle rattle rattle clatter clatter clatter..... And when they do jump the chain, they appear to be non-interference engines. Get a new timing set, put it on, and go.
Ecotec 2.2s had timing chain problems too, but that seems to be limited to the Saturn LS.
I still prefer the Ecotec. It's earned a good reputation.
To their credit, they will run like that for what seems like a long time. rattle rattle rattle rattle rattle rattle clatter clatter clatter..... And when they do jump the chain, they appear to be non-interference engines. Get a new timing set, put it on, and go.
Ecotec 2.2s had timing chain problems too, but that seems to be limited to the Saturn LS.
I still prefer the Ecotec. It's earned a good reputation.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Then there's the timing chains. The tensioner is a simple metal leaf spring type arrangement with a nylon piece that pushes the chain. Remarkably simple design but I've heard a large number of OHV 2200s that sound like diesels because of the timing chain and/or tensioner.
To their credit, they will run like that for what seems like a long time. rattle rattle rattle rattle rattle rattle clatter clatter clatter..... And when they do jump the chain, they appear to be non-interference engines. Get a new timing set, put it on, and go.
Ecotec 2.2s had timing chain problems too, but that seems to be limited to the Saturn LS.
I still prefer the Ecotec. It's earned a good reputation.
Timing issues with an issue with the early saturns and the 2002 Cavalier (only the LS Sport) they must have worked the kinks out by 2003....
Then there's the timing chains. The tensioner is a simple metal leaf spring type arrangement with a nylon piece that pushes the chain. Remarkably simple design but I've heard a large number of OHV 2200s that sound like diesels because of the timing chain and/or tensioner.
To their credit, they will run like that for what seems like a long time. rattle rattle rattle rattle rattle rattle clatter clatter clatter..... And when they do jump the chain, they appear to be non-interference engines. Get a new timing set, put it on, and go.
Ecotec 2.2s had timing chain problems too, but that seems to be limited to the Saturn LS.
I still prefer the Ecotec. It's earned a good reputation.
Timing issues with an issue with the early saturns and the 2002 Cavalier (only the LS Sport) they must have worked the kinks out by 2003....
Over a year ago I got rid of a 2002 OHV Cavalier with 160k on it.
The engine was absolutely bulletproof. Noisy and somewhat un-refined, but it never quit, no matter what I did to it. I've posted the used oil analysis.
Oil changes are an absolute PIA on OHV 4-speed auto cars...almost un-doable. If you really want to to DIY maintenance, get the Ecotec.
When I bought my 2002, I REALLY wanted to get an newer Ecotec powered car, but couldn't swing it, the price was still much higher. The OHV worked well for me, but the Ecotec powered ones are somewhat better cars.
The engine was absolutely bulletproof. Noisy and somewhat un-refined, but it never quit, no matter what I did to it. I've posted the used oil analysis.
Oil changes are an absolute PIA on OHV 4-speed auto cars...almost un-doable. If you really want to to DIY maintenance, get the Ecotec.
When I bought my 2002, I REALLY wanted to get an newer Ecotec powered car, but couldn't swing it, the price was still much higher. The OHV worked well for me, but the Ecotec powered ones are somewhat better cars.
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