10w30 VR1 vs 5w40 Euro (M156 V8)

[edyvw]

So mixing in your opinion is ok? Do you recommend sticking to one Manufacturer when doing so?

I've done it many times to try and lower the viscosity a bit, like 10w30 and 20w50 VR1 in my C36. But I have also heard it can cause issues with chemical imbalances depending on the formulas??

It could. It could foam etc. Who knows.
One of the API requirements is that oils could be mixed. As far as I know, 15W50 is API certified.
I am just trying to, I guess, give you some food for thought, if you think that might help you.
Or, you could use approved oil by that manufacturer.

 

[anderzen]

If I'm starting the cars above 30f does the winter rating play any factor for start up protection with 5w40 vs 20w50?

 

[scrllock]

ZDDP is still at 1400 for the VR1 20w50's both conv and syn and 1100 for the 10w30's

1100 is typical for some of the common Euro xW40s.

I've always had to try various euro oils til I found the one that a particular engine liked. I maintain a friend's A4 that burns anything besides M1 0w40. My previous EA888 really liked Castrol. Without teardowns though it's hard to say which is actually better.

 

[FCD]

Any A3/B4 oil is going to have 1000-1200ppm ZDDP, same goes for any 229.5 oil, as both are Full Saps and High , 3.5 or more HTHS.

M1 5W50 is not a bad oil at all if you want to try it, yes it will tend to shear especially if you drive it hard but it'll just shear a bit to a thick 40 grade.

I have a friend who owns an Escort Cosworth with +300hp and has been running it for years, 5W-50 is what Ford recommended for them, he changes it once a year and it runs great, and he is a bit of a speed freak, i have never felt afraid for my life except for when i once been in the car with him.

 

[RDY4WAR]

NEVER good? Like ever, even before they changed formulas?? There is a surplus of very good looking T6 UOA's on the innerwebs' dating years back to current and from pretty much anything and everything you can imagine not just Subaru's...
And again, a good buddy of mine and well known builder of M156's also uses it routinely with great UOA's, I'll see if I can get a copy to add here.
I have no attachment to T6 whatsoever, so no harm no foul, just makes it sound like you guys are tired of it vs it actually being bad.
What about T4, T5, also not good in your opinion?

Is fuel dilution causing shearing still as much of a problem as it was with EA113 now? I'm genuinely uneducated on that front...

It was never good. Even going back 20 years, it was highly volatile, foamed badly, and had poor oxidation. Engines surviving well on it is more a testimony to the durability of that engine, not the quality of the oil.

Even in the diesel world, T6 isn't very good. It's mediocre at best. With this ecodiesel, the top 2 lines are Rotella T6 5W-40 and bottom 2 lines are HPL No VII 10W-40. The 3rd (middle) line is also T6, but it was only run for 1,000 miles. Notice that Rotella was spent on TBN and sheared out of grade in the first sample, barely still in grade with the second, with only a trace of fuel dilution. This is after oxidative thickening so it's likely both intervals had sheared out of grade by a fair amount.

T6
- Fe: 8.56 ppm / 1k miles
- Al: 9.08 ppm / 1k miles

HPL
- Fe: 3.49 ppm / 1k miles
- Al: 4.59 ppm / 1k miles

I'm not a proponent of blending different oils. While the risk isn't as high these days, there's still some risk of additive clash occurring where different chemistry in the different oils don't play well together.

 

[kschachn]

Isn't oil with the cold/hot viscosities in a closer range less prone to shearing? Most 0w40's and 5w40's I've used thin out pretty quickly, some well below the range of a 30 according to UOA's I have seen on here.

I have used vr1 20w50 in my other Benz V8's for years (M113's which are also 229.5) and they all have run great on it, would Mercedes ever tell me to do this, absolutely not, but if you look closely at their documentation they do approve 20w50 above 0f.

I just think these engines see way too much Camshaft and Cam bucket wear/failure and think a higher zinc formula would be beneficial in protecting those components and I have seen VR1 especially VR1 synthetic keep engines alive in scenarios they maybe shouldn't have survived (Rob Dahm's rotaries come to mind in some extreme scenarios).

Yes, no, maybe so. Mechanical shear of the VM is highly dependent on the specific engine and the quality of the VII being used. Not very many engines have a particlar problem with high shear so for most applications it’s a moot point.

The Internet lore of Euro 0W-40 shearing out of grade is sometimes just that, Internet lore. You also have to be careful that a viscosity deviation isn’t due to fuel dilution which is much more common than mechanical shear. Most of the UOA posted on this site and elsewhere are from a company that is incapable of distinguishing between shear in the VM and fuel dilution.

 

[kschachn]

Is fuel dilution causing shearing still as much of a problem as it was with EA113 now? I'm genuinely uneducated on that front...

The question is which one do you have?

 

[kschachn]

If I'm starting the cars above 30f does the winter rating play any factor for start up protection with 5w40 vs 20w50?

No. Besides, the winter rating isn’t about “protection” except in the sense of being able to be pumped and for cranking. It’s not wear protection.

 

[anderzen]

thank you @RDY4WAR and @kschachn for the informative answers, appreciate it.

@edyvw I'm still curious if you would choose the Castrol 0w30 over the 0w40/5w40 for this application?

And for anyone else, how does the Mobil 1 0w30 stack up with the Castrol 0w30?

 

[edyvw]

thank you @RDY4WAR and @kschachn for the informative answers, appreciate it.

@edyvw I'm still curious if you would choose the Castrol 0w30 over the 0w40/5w40 for this application?

And for anyone else, how does the Mobil 1 0w30 stack up with the Castrol 0w30?

Mobil1 0W30 would be ESP version that is MB229.51, low-SAPS oil (AFE would not be appropriate in your application).
Both are PAO based, Castrol being updated to SP additive pack similar to those in W40 versions, which means higher phosphorus and with that API SL designation.
I used both, both are excellent oils, but prefer Castrol as it will have higher ZDDP levels and lower Noack.
If you go Mobil1, I would go 0/5W40 FS.

 

[anderzen]

Thanks! For what it's worth I saw much less oil consumption with the Castrol 0w40 vs Mobil 0w40 in past (M113 V8's not M156) so I lean towards Castrol between the two. Appreciate all the insight!

 

[scrllock]

thank you @RDY4WAR and @kschachn for the informative answers, appreciate it.

@edyvw I'm still curious if you would choose the Castrol 0w30 over the 0w40/5w40 for this application?

And for anyone else, how does the Mobil 1 0w30 stack up with the Castrol 0w30?

What @edyvw said, but keep in mind there are two Castrol 0w30 options: 0w30 A3/B4 (the one he mentioned, more PAO, too much ZDDP for an API SP xW30 so has API SL).
Locally I can only find the 0w30 LL, which is MB229.51 and lower SAPS. I use the 5w30 A3/B4 in the winter since it's easy to find at walmart pricing.

 

[edyvw]

What @edyvw said, but keep in mind there are two Castrol 0w30 options: 0w30 A3/B4 (the one he mentioned, more PAO, too much ZDDP for an API SP xW30 so has API SL).
Locally I can only find the 0w30 LL, which is MB229.51 and lower SAPS. I use the 5w30 A3/B4 in the winter since it's easy to find at walmart pricing.

I actually never seen LL here, so forgot it even exist. Thanx for pointing out.

 

[KEVINK0000]

VR1 20w50, especially with possible bad metallurgy in valve train as OP stated. Oil can’t fix this but can mitigate. I’ve seen it. So have others. Run conventional, short OCI. IMO Euro oils sometimes get overprescribed for fringe applications. If this was my car, that is what I would use. I use it currently in RX8 daily driver. Used in BMW M30, both NA and turbo daily drivers. It is a fine street oil.