10w30 VR1 vs 5w40 Euro (M156 V8)

[anderzen]

Anyone out there that maybe be able to read these numbers with a finer eye then myself care to share if you think either of these VR1 10w30 offerings can match or exceed the performance of the 5w40 Euro?

Asking with idea of use in Mercedes/AMG M156 engines, which I know most will just say "stick to MB 229.5 approvals" but hear me out... These motors have top ends that suffer from things like cam lobe pitting/wear and cam bucket wear. So in my mind, along with frequent oil changes (3k), wouldn't using an oil like a VR1 with a good amount of zinc that also still meets similar overall properties help combat that type of premature wear?

I am not concerned with the cold viscosity as I never see starts below 30f realistically so either 5w or 10w is fine, but how big of a difference does the 30 vs 40 make on the hot end? And can an oil that is designed for "racing" like a VR1 make up for the hot viscosity difference with better filming capabilities or other qualities that would outperform or match the 40?

Any feedback or expertise appreciated!

 

[Jetronic]

the HTHS on the valvoline isn't likely to meet or exceed 3.5 cP. Other than that I think you are on the right track.

It's going to be difficult for an oil with less than 12 cSt kv100 to have a HTHS of 3.5cP or more, which your Mercedes engine may require.

Did you ever have an oil analysis done on used oil of you engine, and did it come back with low viscosity flagged? I would expect the VR1 to be fairly shear stable, and anti-foaming is quite useful when you have hydraulic actuators, tensioners and lash adjusters.

 

[FCD]

While VR1 in all its flavors is a great oil i would not put the VR1 10W-30 in your engine, it's an oil more designed for classic muscle cars etc than a much more modern engine like that.

Stick to the recommended 229.5 5W-40...

For example, M1 European Car formula 5W-40 is 229.5 and would be perfect for it.

The 229.5 spec is a High HTHS full Saps spec which means the ZDDP is unrestricted, I don't know exactly how much it has but i would expect between 1000-1100ppm which is enough.

 

[Lubener]

You didn't have much information with the 5w-40.

 

[RDY4WAR]

Euro 5W-40 is the better option.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Anyone out there that maybe be able to read these numbers with a finer eye then myself care to share if you think either of these VR1 10w30 offerings can match or exceed the performance of the 5w40 Euro?

Asking with idea of use in Mercedes/AMG M156 engines, which I know most will just say "stick to MB 229.5 approvals" but hear me out... These motors have top ends that suffer from things like cam lobe pitting/wear and cam bucket wear. So in my mind, along with frequent oil changes (3k), wouldn't using an oil like a VR1 with a good amount of zinc that also still meets similar overall properties help combat that type of premature wear?

I am not concerned with the cold viscosity as I never see starts below 30f realistically so either 5w or 10w is fine, but how big of a difference does the 30 vs 40 make on the hot end? And can an oil that is designed for "racing" like a VR1 make up for the hot viscosity difference with better filming capabilities or other qualities that would outperform or match the 40?

Any feedback or expertise appreciated!


View attachment 264723View attachment 264724View attachment 264725

HTHS isn't there.

 

[Kalle.J]

Ask HPL or Amsoil if you want something other then MB229.5 & A40 aka Mobil 1 0w40.

If you are subjecting your engine to some kind of extraordinary performance driving...
Otherwise I don't see the point.

Nice surname

 

[fantastic]

Any web link you can share on the 40 grade? I'd go that route.

 

[anderzen]

The HTHS of VR1 10w30 conventional according to a post on this forum by @joegreen
"The High Temp/High Shear for the Valvoline SAE 10w30 VR-1 Racing Oil is 3.17."
I haven't yet found the HTHS for The VR1 10w30 synthetic.

Isn't oil with the cold/hot viscosities in a closer range less prone to shearing? Most 0w40's and 5w40's I've used thin out pretty quickly, some well below the range of a 30 according to UOA's I have seen on here.

I have used vr1 20w50 in my other Benz V8's for years (M113's which are also 229.5) and they all have run great on it, would Mercedes ever tell me to do this, absolutely not, but if you look closely at their documentation they do approve 20w50 above 0f.

I just think these engines see way too much Camshaft and Cam bucket wear/failure and think a higher zinc formula would be beneficial in protecting those components and I have seen VR1 especially VR1 synthetic keep engines alive in scenarios they maybe shouldn't have survived (Rob Dahm's rotaries come to mind in some extreme scenarios).

 

[Kalle.J]

Still higher then 3.17. After KRL.

One zinc compund is not equal to another, so just comparing PPM is not right either.

R

Thread 'LSJr - Viscosity Breakdown: The Silent Engine Killer Revealed!'

Jul 5, 2024

This is a pretty cool comparison of how different oils KV100 and HTHS150 viscosities change after being sheered. They look at a handful of off the shelf oils along with some custom Grp3/Grp4 blends that focus in on specific VI compounds. Screen shot of results table below.

What I’m curious about is just how much engine time this test corresponds to. It sounds like he’s going to make a follow up video using his Porsche’s engine as a guinea pig but I’m motivated to buy some of that Mobil 1 5W-50 and see how much it sheers in my Mustang after a track weekend.

• RevvCats
• castrol hpl hths liquimoly mobil1 oil analysis sheer
• Replies: 317
• Forum: Passenger Car Motor Oil (PCMO) - Gasoline Vehicles

• 
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[edyvw]

Nope! It will lack other additives; it will probably oxidize faster etc., etc.

 

[anderzen]

For reference, The VR1 20w50 has an HTHS of 4.8 according to @Cujet in this post here

Attached is the VR1 20w50 conventional and synthetic data from Valvoline for comparison.

 

[anderzen]

Nope! It will lack other additives; it will probably oxidize faster etc., etc.

I'm not looking to run this for more than 3k miles or 1 year which realistically because I share driving amongst different vehicles I only hit about 1500 miles annually.. I don't think oxidization would play much of a factor and I've seen inside the motors I have been using it in to know visually that hasn't been an issue. Now if I were running Benz's insane 10k mile recommended oil service interval that would be another scenario...

 

[edyvw]

For reference, The VR1 20w50 has an HTHS of 4.8 according to @Cujet in this post here

Attached is the VR1 20w50 conventional and synthetic data from Valvoline for comparison.

View attachment 264789
View attachment 264790

Sorry, but you are looking for confirmation bias here.
Racing oils don't do well in street environments. Street oils actually do good (some) in track/racing environments. Some racing oils lately are formulated to mix street/track/racing, but that is not VR1. If you want racing oil to use, go HPL BAS 5W40, Redline 5W40, Motul 300V 5W40 (I used that).
But not sure oil will solve what appears to be material issue. It is not magic.

 

[edyvw]

I'm not looking to run this for more than 3k miles or 1 year which realistically because I share driving amongst different vehicles I only hit about 1500 miles annually.. I don't think oxidization would play much of a factor and I've seen inside the motors I have been using it in to know visually that hasn't been an issue. Now if I were running Benz's insane 10k mile recommended oil service interval that would be another scenario...

Well then, go for it.

 

[anderzen]

Sorry, but you are looking for confirmation bias here.
Racing oils don't do well in street environments. Street oils actually do good (some) in track/racing environments. Some racing oils lately are formulated to mix street/track/racing, but that is not VR1. If you want racing oil to use, go HPL BAS 5W40, Redline 5W40, Motul 300V 5W40 (I used that).
But not sure oil will solve what appears to be material issue. It is not magic.

I have not interest in confirmation bias, just sharing what I can find related to the scenario or have actually experienced in my own cars etc.

I know it's not magic, and in reality I think a lot of the failures have to do with a poorly thought out or designed obsolescence 10k miles oil service interval for the M156 by Benz. This engine was designed from scratch by AMG, their first mass production engine of the sort for Benz, it's probably more race engine than street motor in most attributes. I just want to figure out what oils may be suitable aside from the 229.5 approved, people yelled and laughed at me initially for running the VR1 20w50 in my M113 5.4l AMG's and years later the engine's are doing great. Do I have fantastic evidence outside of they run great and valve trains are spotless? no.

 

[RDY4WAR]

Isn't oil with the cold/hot viscosities in a closer range less prone to shearing?

Not necessarily. It should be that way but often isn't. A narrow multi-grade (or lower VI), like a 10W-30 or 15W-40, can be made with cheaper, more volatile, lower VI base oils and a common 35-50 SSI VII and still meet the standards for that grade. Since the major brands are all in a race to the bottom, they happily accept the lower production cost. (with no corresponding drop in retail cost, of course) A wider multi-grade forces them to use better quality base oils and VII to still meet the standard. Some brands are more frugal than others. For example, Mobil 1 ESP 0W-40 sheared just -2.9% in KRL while Castrol Edge 5W-40 sheared -13.7%.

This is not always the case, but it happens enough that you can't make a blanket statement one way or the other. This doesn't apply to boutique blenders that tend to formulate to a performance point instead of a price point.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I have not interest in confirmation bias, just sharing what I can find related to the scenario or have actually experienced in my own cars etc.

I know it's not magic, and in reality I think a lot of the failures have to do with a poorly thought out or designed obsolescence 10k miles oil service interval for the M156 by Benz. This engine was designed from scratch by AMG, their first mass production engine of the sort for Benz, it's probably more race engine than street motor in most attributes. I just want to figure out what oils may be suitable aside from the 229.5 approved, people yelled and laughed at me initially for running the VR1 20w50 in my M113 5.4l AMG's and years later the engine's are doing great. Do I have fantastic evidence outside of they run great and valve trains are spotless? no.

Don't lose sight that 229.50 is an extended drain specification. You're likely not using the VR1 20w50 on 10k mile intervals. You could probably use a SAE 40 in your Mercedes on a 3k mile interval. Just because you're using a different oil on a significantly shorter interval doesn't mean the oil itself is better. Intervals matter.

 

[edyvw]

I have not interest in confirmation bias, just sharing what I can find related to the scenario or have actually experienced in my own cars etc.

I know it's not magic, and in reality I think a lot of the failures have to do with a poorly thought out or designed obsolescence 10k miles oil service interval for the M156 by Benz. This engine was designed from scratch by AMG, their first mass production engine of the sort for Benz, it's probably more race engine than street motor in most attributes. I just want to figure out what oils may be suitable aside from the 229.5 approved, people yelled and laughed at me initially for running the VR1 20w50 in my M113 5.4l AMG's and years later the engine's are doing great. Do I have fantastic evidence outside of they run great and valve trains are spotless? no.

Then go HPL BAS, Redline 5W40, Motul 300V.

 

[anderzen]

Thanks for the feedback guys, when I owned an M156 previously I used Rotella T6 5w40 or Redline 5w40. I just spoke with a friend who has been running T6 even with track use and he said his UOA's have been perfect on it. I'll likely go that route as it's always available on the shelf nearby. I love the boutique oils but don't like having to rely on ordering online to get them, personal preference.