0W oils; is the fear eligible ?

[Jimmy_Russells]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by fdcg27
It may be that these Euros are looking at the trees but not seeing the forest and many here are the same in their thinking.
We have many engines here for which 0W-20 is the recommended grade.
They run many miles on this grade without issues.
Prior to this, low HTHS 5W-20 and 5W-30 grades were the norm for decades here.
Guess what?
The engines did just fine on these fuel efficient oils.
Speed?
If the average German really wants to experience higher speeds for more than a few miles at a time and not in the dead of night, then they should visit West Texas or Montana. Plenty of wide open spaces with few interruptions.

Problem are third world country roads, not open space.


Ok, that's pretty funny.

lol

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Unless it's about keeping the VVT hardware functioning optimally 0w-X are not really needed for the US market (Canada is a different story).

The winter rating is completely irrelevant to VVT operation. The only time a 0W rated oil might be thinner is at extremely low temperature, such as -35F. And at that temperature any oil will be massively thick. Above that temperature there is no guarantee a 0W rated oil will be thinner.

So many misconceptions about the winter rating on this board and in this thread in particular.


Allegedly, per my discussion with a BMW technician, BMW moved to a 0w30 in order to reduce wear on the VVT due to the US operating environment. In any case I don't think it's worth talking guarantees but more like probabilities because we all know that oil viscosity grades are all about ranges.

 

[ChristianReske]

In one european Oil forum they tell you that 0w-40 oils are almost crap. The worst thing you could put in a engine. They tell you that it is all only marketing by the manufactureres.
They tell you that the VI Improvers will shear down in no time and after this, the Oil dont protect your engine well. VI Improvers are devil´s stuff and to avoid at all cost.

They recommend 10w- or even 15w- oils for better engine protection, because of the Thicker base oil. Cold start wear did not exist, they say....And there are a lot of videos out there of people that turn around bottles of cold 10w- oil, especially from Russia, that is prove enough for them that also 10w- oil flows good enough when cold, they say.

I have deleted my account there.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Allegedly, per my discussion with a BMW technician, BMW moved to a 0w30 in order to reduce wear on the VVT due to the US operating environment. In any case I don't think it's worth talking guarantees but more like probabilities because we all know that oil viscosity grades are all about ranges.

But we also should know that the winter rating is not the part of the grade designation that determines this.

Also an unsubstantiated discussion with a random BMW technician does not establish company policy or technical requirements.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Allegedly, per my discussion with a BMW technician, BMW moved to a 0w30 in order to reduce wear on the VVT due to the US operating environment. In any case I don't think it's worth talking guarantees but more like probabilities because we all know that oil viscosity grades are all about ranges.

But we also should know that the winter rating is not the part of the grade designation that determines this.

Also an unsubstantiated discussion with a random BMW technician does not establish company policy or technical requirements.


Right however a 0w will be formulated differently than an 5w of the same weight no? Theoretically, couldn't the difference in composition have an impact on the performance of a particular component over time? I've read that there's a bit of a conflict in regards to the requirements for protecting the top end and the bottom end of an engine. *shrug*

 

[demarpaint]

I often think there is a lot of unwarranted fear in the Bitog oil world.........

 

[RMG]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
0w-X are not really needed for the US market (Canada is a different story).

The only time a 0W rated oil might be thinner is at extremely low temperature, such as -35F. And at that temperature any oil will be massively thick. Above that temperature there is no guarantee a 0W rated oil will be thinner.

So many misconceptions about the winter rating on this board and in this thread in particular.

My understanding was a 0W-X it is still too thick for normal operation when the engine is cold but it does not have far to go before it warms up and thins to the correct viscosity ( less engine wear. )
Do you have a chart or an app to compare the viscosity within a wide temperature range? I would like to see the difference between a 0W-X and a 5W-X for example. Thanks.

 

[bulwnkl]

What part of the engine causes concern about wear?

If anyone wants to, they can go to Schaeffer Oil's website and look at the tech data sheets for their engine oils. Here's the URL:

https://www.schaefferoil.com/passenger-cars-and-light-duty-trucks.html

The 0w-xx, 5w-xx, and 10w-xx gasoline engine oils all show the same amount of cam + lifter wear in the Seq IIIG test. The one notable difference between them is the higher MHT-4 deposit result for the 0w-xx fluid vs the rest.

So, in an engine with a lifter design similar to the 3800 V6 from GM, 0w oils don't seem to increase valvetrain wear vs even 10w oils. Other engine tests would be needed to address other areas of an engine. Anybody have any?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by ChristianReske
In one european Oil forum they tell you that 0w-40 oils are almost crap. The worst thing you could put in a engine. They tell you that it is all only marketing by the manufactureres.
They tell you that the VI Improvers will shear down in no time and after this, the Oil dont protect your engine well. VI Improvers are devil´s stuff and to avoid at all cost.

They recommend 10w- or even 15w- oils for better engine protection, because of the Thicker base oil. Cold start wear did not exist, they say....And there are a lot of videos out there of people that turn around bottles of cold 10w- oil, especially from Russia, that is prove enough for them that also 10w- oil flows good enough when cold, they say.

I have deleted my account there.

Ask them how did Mobil1 0W40 (VISOM) in my VW CC sheared down from 13.5cst to only 13.3cst in 5k miles?

 

[RMG]

Originally Posted by bulwnkl


The 0w-xx, 5w-xx, and 10w-xx gasoline engine oils all show the same amount of cam + lifter wear in the Seq IIIG test.


I'm really skeptical about the possibility all these oils "show the same amount of cam + lifter wear". My understanding was that most engine wear (it is said 90 percent) occurs at startup when the oil is too thick to lubricate properly. Immediately after a "cold start" even in warm ambient temperatures, the oil is still way too thick for an engine desigend to work at a much higher temperature. A 0W-X oil should definitely help imho.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by RMG
Originally Posted by bulwnkl
The 0w-xx, 5w-xx, and 10w-xx gasoline engine oils all show the same amount of cam + lifter wear in the Seq IIIG test.
I'm really skeptical about the possibility all these oils "show the same amount of cam + lifter wear". My understanding was that most engine wear (It is said that 90 percent) occurs at startup when the oil is too thick to lubricate properly. A 0W-X oil should definitely help imho.

Well first off, the 90% of wear at startup thing is not accurate. But secondly, "startup" is not a defined event, unless you are well below 0F (around -30F or below) there is no guarantee any 0W rated oil will be thinner than a different grade. For the 800,000th time a 0W rated oil is not a "0 grade oil" that is thinner at all temperatures. It is a performance specification, and various viscosity oils can meet it (or not). Protection is determined by the second number in the grade designation, not the winter rating.

And last, the oil is never too thick to lubricate properly although it can be too thin. However, it may be too thick to be drawn into the pickup tube and subsequently starve the oil pump. That along with ease of cranking are what define the winter rating per SAE J300.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by RMG
Originally Posted by bulwnkl
The 0w-xx, 5w-xx, and 10w-xx gasoline engine oils all show the same amount of cam + lifter wear in the Seq IIIG test.
I'm really skeptical about the possibility all these oils "show the same amount of cam + lifter wear". My understanding was that most engine wear (It is said that 90 percent) occurs at startup when the oil is too thick to lubricate properly. A 0W-X oil should definitely help imho.

Well first off, the 90% of wear at startup thing is not accurate. But secondly, "startup" is not a defined event, unless you are well below 0F (around -30F or below) there is no guarantee any 0W rated oil will be thinner than a different grade. For the 800,000th time a 0W rated oil is not a "0 grade oil" that is thinner at all temperatures. It is a performance specification, and various viscosity oils can meet it (or not). Protection is determined by the second number in the grade designation, not the winter rating.

And last, the oil is never too thick to lubricate properly although it can be too thin. However, it may be too thick to be drawn into the pickup tube and subsequently starve the oil pump. That along with ease of cranking are what define the winter rating per SAE J300.


So your saying that the viscosity curve of an 0w30 and a 5w30 essentially merge at a temp that's well below typical cold starting temps in the US?

 

[TiGeo]

If Castrol/M1 0W40 meet the necessary approval (VW502.00 for instance), how could there be an issue? It's light weight when cold and 40 weight when hot, I don't see the drama. 2000 Jetta still running at 280K on primarily 0W40 M1 and 10K OCIs.

 

[RMG]

Originally Posted by kschachn
For the 800,000th time a 0W rated oil is not a "0 grade oil" that is thinner at all temperatures.


I didn't say a "0 grade oil [...] is thinner at all temperatures"...

Originally Posted by kschachn
the oil is never too thick to lubricate properly


...a debate that I will not engage in

 

[Lowflyer]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Well first off, the 90% of wear at startup thing is not accurate.
Ok. Whats accurate? Is 70-80% accurate enough?

Quote
For the 800,000th time a 0W rated oil is not a "0 grade oil" that is thinner at all temperatures.
I am unsure. Was NewLife thinner at all temperatures as ESP 5W-30? (i dont know that truyl at the moment)

Originally Posted by PandaBear
Maybe for the typical European cars that spec 5w40 or 0w40 it is bad. For a Toyota that has spec 0w20 since mid 2000s, or 0w16 since variable flow oil pump becomes standard. This is a non issue.
Aha... Truly? Not issues?

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by fdcg27
It may be that these Euros are looking at the trees but not seeing the forest and many here are the same in their thinking.
We have many engines here for which 0W-20 is the recommended grade.
They run many miles on this grade without issues.
Prior to this, low HTHS 5W-20 and 5W-30 grades were the norm for decades here.
Guess what?
The engines did just fine on these fuel efficient oils.
Speed?
If the average German really wants to experience higher speeds for more than a few miles at a time and not in the dead of night, then they should visit West Texas or Montana. Plenty of wide open spaces with few interruptions.

Problem are third world country roads, not open space.


Not sure what you're trying to convey here.
Did you mean to imply that the EU has roads in the sticks that are third world, to use your no longer current term?
The interstates through West Texas and Montana, the two states that I cited, are on a par with anything you'll find anywhere in Europe for more than a few miles or kilometers and they are very lightly trafficked, especially in Montana.
Get out a bit in this country and you'll see what I mean.
Lots of pristine interstate miles in flyover country where you can run really fast for hours on end.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by fdcg27
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by fdcg27
It may be that these Euros are looking at the trees but not seeing the forest and many here are the same in their thinking.
We have many engines here for which 0W-20 is the recommended grade.
They run many miles on this grade without issues.
Prior to this, low HTHS 5W-20 and 5W-30 grades were the norm for decades here.
Guess what?
The engines did just fine on these fuel efficient oils.
Speed?
If the average German really wants to experience higher speeds for more than a few miles at a time and not in the dead of night, then they should visit West Texas or Montana. Plenty of wide open spaces with few interruptions.

Problem are third world country roads, not open space.


Not sure what you're trying to convey here.
Did you mean to imply that the EU has roads in the sticks that are third world, to use your no longer current term?
The interstates through West Texas and Montana, the two states that I cited, are on a par with anything you'll find anywhere in Europe for more than a few miles or kilometers and they are very lightly trafficked, especially in Montana.
Get out a bit in this country and you'll see what I mean.
Lots of pristine interstate miles in flyover country where you can run really fast for hours on end.

I go to Montana often and was twice in West TX this year. Quality wise they are FAR BEHIND anything in the EU. I am talking about quality of roads, not whether one can drive for hours fast.
On US roads, if I am driving really fast, I want first to have absolute knowledge of every inch of that road (I am talking about illegal speeds, not 85-90mph. That is not fast). In EU, and even countries outside EU, low quality autobahn style roads are exception, not a rule.
American interstate system is still where German was when Ike rolled his tanks and copy/pasted it here.

 

[Zolton]

Well, imo Euro 5w-40 lag behind 0w-40 in general.

Take Edge 5w-40 vs Edge 0w-40; one has state-of-the-art MB 229.5, the other is stuck with lesser MB 229.3

It's just one example, I understand there are 5w-40 with 229.5, but are there any 0w-40 with only 229.3 or VW 502? No, it's a generation-old formula.

I think you can say the same about other 0w- oils in 20 and 30 weights, especially like something like a VW 508 0w-20 or even GC

GENERALLY....

 

[Zolton]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Unless it's about keeping the VVT hardware functioning optimally 0w-X are not really needed for the US market (Canada is a different story).

The winter rating is completely irrelevant to VVT operation. The only time a 0W rated oil might be thinner is at extremely low temperature, such as -35F. And at that temperature any oil will be massively thick. Above that temperature there is no guarantee a 0W rated oil will be thinner.

So many misconceptions about the winter rating on this board and in this thread in particular.


Allegedly, per my discussion with a BMW technician, BMW moved to a 0w30 in order to reduce wear on the VVT due to the US operating environment. In any case I don't think it's worth talking guarantees but more like probabilities because we all know that oil viscosity grades are all about ranges.


I believe 0w-40 (and Euro 0w-30) were developed for this very reason; 5w-40 is too thick in cold to lube a turbo quickly ,or for VVT, or even for short-hop driving. 5w-40 is 3-4x thicker than 5w-30 in extreme cold.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Zolton
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Unless it's about keeping the VVT hardware functioning optimally 0w-X are not really needed for the US market (Canada is a different story).

The winter rating is completely irrelevant to VVT operation. The only time a 0W rated oil might be thinner is at extremely low temperature, such as -35F. And at that temperature any oil will be massively thick. Above that temperature there is no guarantee a 0W rated oil will be thinner.

So many misconceptions about the winter rating on this board and in this thread in particular.


Allegedly, per my discussion with a BMW technician, BMW moved to a 0w30 in order to reduce wear on the VVT due to the US operating environment. In any case I don't think it's worth talking guarantees but more like probabilities because we all know that oil viscosity grades are all about ranges.


I believe 0w-40 (and Euro 0w-30) were developed for this very reason; 5w-40 is too thick in cold to lube a turbo quickly ,or for VVT, or even for short-hop driving. 5w-40 is 3-4x thicker than 5w-30 in extreme cold.

I really, REALLY want to hear explanation of this. Please elaborate!