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Amazon Basics 0W-40 Euro
- Thread starter hondaguyinma
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Agreed! This 0W-40 is anything but typical. The ZDDP anti wear package is extraordinary in this day and age. 1,327 zinc and 1,242 phosphorus"No moly, no boron, pretty typical". Ummm, I wouldn't say that's typical
. No other current 40 grade synthetic comes even close according to the VOA database. First jug is going into one of my high revving 2ZZ-GEs this weekend.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yes, it has more phosphorous, but no moly to compliment it. This is more like an HDEO level of phosphorous than what you'd normally see in a full-SAPS Euro oil.Agreed! This 0W-40 is anything but typical. The ZDDP anti wear package is extraordinary in this day and age. 1,327 zinc and 1,242 phosphorus
Remember, there's no constraint; no upper limit on how much phosphorous is used in a full-SAPS Euro oil, so if you see 1,000ppm or 1,100ppm, that's not because of any sort of limit and it's not a cost cutting measure, it is what was determined, through testing, to be optimal for that product to pass the suite of tests the oil was subject to; to meet the OE performance targets set by BMW, Mercedes, VW, Porsche...etc.
This oil is not a premium performance product. It's blended to be able to be sold as cheaply as possible, which is why it has no OE approvals, and is simply "recommended for" many Euro applications.
Think of it as sort of the opposite formulation approach taken by @High Performance Lubricants. Dave and Dr. Rudnick are targeting the best possible performance, price be ****ed. Warren is targeting "acceptable" performance at the lowest possible cost. That's not a knock at Warren, they are simply providing what is being asked of them.
Do I think M1 0W-40 is a better performing product? Yes.
Good!
To me, it is the most premium product sold today for my application. Similar in composition to some racing oils. High levels of ZDDP, a proven anti wear additive. I don't plan to use this oil in a turbocharged DI Euro engine. It's going into a high-revving, naturally aspirated Japanese engine with aggressive cam profiles and slipper pads.
I don't mind the zero Moly/Boron. ZDDP is proven to form effective AW tribofilms on its own. Moly can't do that alone, only on ZDDP's coattails.
But is it, really? In every single application?
I bought this for my old Sienna due to the price, but maybe it isn't a great choice. The engine does burn some oil.Agreed! This 0W-40 is anything but typical. The ZDDP anti wear package is extraordinary in this day and age. 1,327 zinc and 1,242 phosphorus
Hermann
Site Donor 2023
I got a email from Amazon that this oil is no longer available. It was in my subscribe and save and they cancelled my sub.
A turbo-charged Merc? I'm not running cheapie oil personally regardless if I got it on sale. Just toss it up on FB Market place and sell it if you can't use it in your other vehicles. On the other end, this won't hurt your car for a 5K change if you really want to use it...you could run run-of-the-mill 5W30 in that for a 5K change and it wouldn't hurt anything but long term use, I'd use an oil that has the 229.5 approval as the best choice. BTW - I use Supertech/Warren oils in my 2 older/high mileage/teenager-driver vehicles without hesitation.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Moly works synergistically with ZDDP, improving overall performance:
Science Direct said:
Oils are fully formulated products, their overall performance is not the result of the presence of a single additive, nor does higher levels of an additive, beyond a certain point, necessarily increase performance. It is a result of the overarching approach to formulation, fine-tuning and testing, with a nod given to cost in the process. This is why @High Performance Lubricants uses different blends of FM's to optimize the overall AW and low friction aspects of their formulas. This is expensive.
So no, just putting ~1250ppm of phosphorous in a base oil blend and skipping the FM's does not make it a premium product, and in no way supports the premise that it offers higher levels of AW performance than an oil with ~1,000ppm of phosphorous that also includes other additives that ultimately make that phosphorous more effective. The conclusions you have drawn here are spurious at best, and that's being generous.
You are of course free to dismiss my advice on this matter, which I feel is almost a guarantee given the nature of this exchange. Your singular focus on ZDDP, while ignoring the price point of the product, speaks to an unwillingness to apply adequate critical thought, likely the unfortunate result of already being invested in this "strategy".
I'm also concerned that you have somehow come to the conclusion that having HDEO levels of phosphorous makes the composition similar to a race oil. M1 0W-40 is actually a race oil, used in many 24hr events.
M1 Racing 0W-50 has, per Mobil, 1,750ppm of phosphorous, but it also has ~1,300ppm of moly and ~120ppm of boron:
Like I said, Moly is riding on ZDDP's coattails but its overall effect seems negligible. At best, it can improve ZDDP's performance by about 10%. It can also have an anti-synergic effect (too much Moly with not enough ZDDP). Bottom line, ZDDP is king. Moly is a nice-to-have cherry on top that I can do without. This wear scar table lays it out nicely.
| Base oil + ZDDP + MoDTC, ppm | Wear scar, μm |
|---|---|
| Base oil only | 225 |
| [Zn] 100 to 2000 | 75 |
| [Mo] 100 to 2000 | 125 |
| [Mo] 1000 + [Zn] 100 to 1000 | 130 |
| [Zn] 1000 + [Mo] 100 to 1000 | 70 |
Yes, I have come to this conclusion based on data. Sure looks like a race oil to me!
| Amazon Euro 0W-40 | Valvoline VR1 20W-50 Race Oil | |
| Zinc | 1327 | 1315 |
| Phosphorus | 1242 | 1101 |
| Molybdenum | 0 | 0 |
| Boron | 0 | 2 |
| Calcium | 3115 | 1943 |
That’s not all that defines or comprises a race oil.
And wear scar table?? Okey dokey.
And wear scar table?? Okey dokey.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
OK, clearly I'm wasting my time, enjoy your oil.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Apparently all you need is some cheap Group III and lots of an unknown type of ZDDP to make a premium race oil. Not worth the time engaging on, I feel embarrassed for expending the energy I already have on this "discussion".
- Joined
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I know I said I was out but I just had to come back in and make this comment after seeing the comments in my emails.
Man, a lot of peeps get bent out of shape over things like oil and oil filters among other thing like different auto fluids but yet on Friday nights they go out and have the biggest cheeseburger money can buy with enough grease to clog a garden hose let alone a human artery then spend that evening smoking 4 cigars while chugging down 1/2 a case of beer ignoring everything their physician said about losing weight and tryna eat healthy. But yet they won't put a "cheapie" oil blended by a reputable company into a car engine that has not been proven to cause any damages. LOL.
Exactly! Thanks for starting this thread! I have several jugs of this oil from the Amazon promo/price error. I was going to use it anyway, but thanks to your thread (and the person who posted the video) I now know what's in it and it far exceeded my expectations for $6.73/5qt.
Interesting analogy but I don’t see the connection. I would not use the oil in place of one with an actual approval but I don’t drink 1/2 case of beer nor smoke 4 cigars while eating cheeseburgers. Nor do I ignore my doctor’s advice, so maybe that explains it.
I also don’t think that a table of typical properties equates to or substitutes for an approval either, but maybe that’s just me.
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Hey, anytime man. I don't think it was a pricing error. I think Amazon was just trying to get rid of it. Because it's not on their site anymore. Only their 5W-40 Euro is. My neighbor is an ER doc and his wife a Gynocologist. They drive Audis. The guy love doing things on his own and has a lift in one of his garages. He said he uses whatever Euro oil he gets his hands on with the same weight his Audi calls for. He has had different Audis since I moved in next to him bought 8 of these jugs and told me so I bought 4. Took a while but they came to my door. I doubt he knows anything about oil other than to use Euro formula with the correct weight. Never heard him complain about his Audis so I would have to say that sometimes the less you know the better.
For me, calling Warren and having the guy sending me that PDS showing this oil meets 229.5 was enough for me. Is it better than M1 or Castrol? or Redline or Amsoil? Probably not. Is it good enough for my Benz and allow me to sleep at night without any worries? I think so. But hey that's me.
It’s not good enough for your Benz.
But don’t let that get in the way of a self-righteous rant.
You can’t argue that “the numbers” are the “same” and then say numbers don’t matter.
You don’t have all the numbers and the ones you’ve chosen are not indicative of the oil’s performance.
Looking at the moly, or phosphorus, without knowing how those elements are integrated in to the formulation, is like being one of the proverbial blind men describing an elephant.
They each “know” what they can feel.
And they’re each laughably wrong.
But don’t let that get in the way of a self-righteous rant.
You can’t argue that “the numbers” are the “same” and then say numbers don’t matter.
You don’t have all the numbers and the ones you’ve chosen are not indicative of the oil’s performance.
Looking at the moly, or phosphorus, without knowing how those elements are integrated in to the formulation, is like being one of the proverbial blind men describing an elephant.
They each “know” what they can feel.
And they’re each laughably wrong.
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I hear you and I completely get it. And I am not arguing about numbers. Heck, I don't even know what a lot of it means. Is what I am saying. However, when people say I don't use this cheapie stuff because it does not appear on the approval list or it's not good enough for the Benz, what fact do they have to go by? Has there been a case of failure where it lead back to this oil, or any Euro oil not meeting approval? Or is it a case of I would not take Walmart brand's aspirin when I have a headache and would only take Tylenol. That is what I don't get. If I know Walmart's inhouse aspirin is made by (fill in the name of a reputable pharmaceutical) then I would not hesitate one bit.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Because it doesn't have the approvals? The approvals guarantee a minimum level of performance. Yes, there are products that go above and beyond that, but you aren't finding them branded Supertech or Amazon Basics and they cost considerably more than formally approved products.
This is the "pile of failed engines" fallacy. An inferior oil typically won't cause catastrophic failure. What will happen is more piston ring deposits than allowed by some of the OE tests, more wear than is allowed in some of these OE tests...etc. Typically just poorer performance. If you don't own your vehicles long term, it's likely of no real consequence; it's certainly of no immediate consequence, but that doesn't mean it's not of detriment.
Bad analogy, those are two different drugs (Aspirin - acetylsalicylic acid and Tylenol - acetaminophen). Regardless of whose name is on the bottle, chemically, the store brands and while box products are the same as the brand names (though there is some question on QC on some of the white box substitutes regardless of them being approved products). This is quite dissimilar to engine oils when discussing big brand names, like Mobil 1, with store brands, like Supertech, which can have wildly different formulations.
A better analogy might be to compare Chinese surplus ammo to various qualities of boxed ammo. Or perhaps comparing McDonalds to a 3 or 4 star restaurant. Yeah, they are both food, but that's about where the comparison ends. You could extend that particular analogy to the movie "Supersize me" as to the results of doing the McDonalds diet, which likely correlates reasonably well with using a subpar lubricant in an application that calls for a specific approval.
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Well. You know what I mean about the aspirin thing
but I will say I agree with you on the ammo. During the Covid supply shortage I got some Wolf steel ammo from Target Sports and they dirtied my Sigs and Glocks more than normal and I swear never again and I will stick to Magtech Blazer or Winchester. Anything but Wolf.- Status
