0w-40 or 5w-40 for hot summers in audi with turbos

[fdcg27]

I wouldn't use Syntec 5W-40 either, but there's always Syntec 0W-30.
You are right in citing other additives, but they aren't mysterious.
Many of the oils meeting BMW or Mercedes specs are pretty simple in their additive packages, like GC.
The dual fleet oils, like Delvac 1300 also meet specs of no relavance to gassers, like limits on bore polishing.

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Mobil 1 0W-40 meets some VW specs but not all. You need to know what you are after before you buy any oil, regardless of how good M1 0W-40 may be.

Guess many of us are just not savvy enough for you, I can live with that.


Who cares if Mobil 1 0w40 doesn't meet all VW specs. It meets the important spec for the North American market. VW502.00.

Given it's a C5 A6 Allroad... the owner's manual would have some ambiguity (prior to the longitudinal 1.8T sludge fiasco)... nonetheless it would list VW502.00 and ACEA A3/B4 as the oil requirements, as well, back then... 5w40 weight.

So in the end, is Mobil 1 0w40 fine for this application? Yes.

digressing a bit... it doesn't meet 503.00. If the car was set up for flexible service intervals, 503.00 would not be appropiate. It would need 503.01 (flexible service intervals for certain high output engines)...which it meets.

It doesn't meet 505.01, 506.00 & 506.01.... they are TDI specs... for one thing.. it's not a Pumpe Duse engine (505.01 and certain flex service PD-TDI's use 506.01)....

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I wouldn't use Syntec 5W-40 either, but there's always Syntec 0W-30.
You are right in citing other additives, but they aren't mysterious.
Many of the oils meeting BMW or Mercedes specs are pretty simple in their additive packages, like GC.
The dual fleet oils, like Delvac 1300 also meet specs of no relavance to gassers, like limits on bore polishing.

I used GC in Pssat that I owned until recently. Extremely good oil, good cold start, no issues.
However, this is my friend's passat. Extremely neglected car!!! She is type of person that think car should maintain itself. Anyway, I put GC twice in her 1.8T but she never checked oil and car consumes some. She came twoce to the point where STOP message poped out because there was only 2qt of oil in engine.
So I decided to put Rotella just to see whether "thicker" oil would decrease oil consumption.
Just a try, but considering overall condition of the car, and how she treats it, I doubt!

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Isn't easier form many points for Mobil to sell just one oil as their premium oil for all applications?
Does that mean that Shell Rotella T6 and PU 5W40 are same oils?


They do sell one oil as their premium oil - Mobil 1 0w-40. That's for passenger vehicles. They sell Delvac 1 synthetic as an HDEO.

I never said that Delvac 1 and Mobil 1 0w-40 are the same oils. They're clearly not, since they have different cold cranking viscosities, pour points, and so forth. That doesn't mean Delvac 1 is absolutely unsuitable for certain applications and certain conditions where Mobil 1 0w-40 is recommended.

Heck, Mobil's own site recommends I use M1 0w-40 for the old Audi, when the manual clearly prefers 15w-40, and I personally preferred Delvac 1.

As for specifications, I always advocate following what the manual recommends. However, that doesn't mean that other choices aren't valid. Most importantly, the manufacturer isn't always right. We've seen plenty of sludgers out there that wound up in that position because of following manufacturers' recommendations. There's a reason why recommendations change. The VW/Audi specs came about in the first place at least partially because the manufacturer's original recommendations were not working.

Your assertion that a 15w-40 would cause issues is only partly true. If it were used too long, undoubtedly, sludge could result. Short OCIs with a modern HDEO 15w-40 would likely not be a problem. A modern 15w-40 can definitely take the heat of turbos. Just don't run it for 20,000 miles. As for the viscosity, it's not optimal at startup, but at operating temperature, it's basically the same thing.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Isn't easier form many points for Mobil to sell just one oil as their premium oil for all applications?
Does that mean that Shell Rotella T6 and PU 5W40 are same oils?


They do sell one oil as their premium oil - Mobil 1 0w-40. That's for passenger vehicles. They sell Delvac 1 synthetic as an HDEO.

I never said that Delvac 1 and Mobil 1 0w-40 are the same oils. They're clearly not, since they have different cold cranking viscosities, pour points, and so forth. That doesn't mean Delvac 1 is absolutely unsuitable for certain applications and certain conditions where Mobil 1 0w-40 is recommended.

Heck, Mobil's own site recommends I use M1 0w-40 for the old Audi, when the manual clearly prefers 15w-40, and I personally preferred Delvac 1.

As for specifications, I always advocate following what the manual recommends. However, that doesn't mean that other choices aren't valid. Most importantly, the manufacturer isn't always right. We've seen plenty of sludgers out there that wound up in that position because of following manufacturers' recommendations. There's a reason why recommendations change. The VW/Audi specs came about in the first place at least partially because the manufacturer's original recommendations were not working.

Your assertion that a 15w-40 would cause issues is only partly true. If it were used too long, undoubtedly, sludge could result. Short OCIs with a modern HDEO 15w-40 would likely not be a problem. A modern 15w-40 can definitely take the heat of turbos. Just don't run it for 20,000 miles. As for the viscosity, it's not optimal at startup, but at operating temperature, it's basically the same thing.


I never said that 15W40 is not suitable for 20yr old Audi. 15W40 at that time was recommended weight in Europe for pretty much ALL cars!

 

[fdcg27]

T6 is not a conforming oil, as you already know.
Are you actually agreeing with me?
Anyway, T6 should be good for her car.
Still, even in a VW, it takes quite a few miles to burn down to 2qts remaining.
She needs to be shown how to check her oil, and she should do it at least every couple of weeks.
Doesn't it kill you how some folks just ignore a carefully engineered piece of machinery they rely upon every day?
Ask her how she'd feel if she had to replace the engine, and be without a car for at least a week, simply because she failed to keep oil in it.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
T6 is not a conforming oil, as you already know.
Are you actually agreeing with me?
Anyway, T6 should be good for her car.
Still, even in a VW, it takes quite a few miles to burn down to 2qts remaining.
She needs to be shown how to check her oil, and she should do it at least every couple of weeks.
Doesn't it kill you how some folks just ignore a carefully engineered piece of machinery they rely upon every day?
Ask her how she'd feel if she had to replace the engine, and be without a car for at least a week, simply because she failed to keep oil in it.


Man, explained her, showed her, told her how expensive it is etc, etc, etc. No effect!!!
You should see tires, boots on axels etc. Not to mention 87 gas in turbo high compression ratio engine etc.
Allingment? You have to fight steering wheel. Brakes? Whats that!
When it come sto T^, I agree you could run full synthetic 5W40, but not some 15W40 HD oil in 1.8T (unless that engine is lost cause, like this one might be)!

 

[teddyboy]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
audia6 - Welcome to BITOG

You will be best served by staying with M1 0W-40


When Doug Hillary speaks, I listen. That's why nothing but M1 0W40 goes into my S80.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
I never said that 15W40 is not suitable for 20yr old Audi. 15W40 at that time was recommended weight in Europe for pretty much ALL cars!


I realize. My point was that it wouldn't be an instant disaster for a more modern European car, either. It wouldn't be ideal, and you'd certainly lose out on the long drain potential.

 

[fdcg27]

What drain interval was recommended for your Audi, Garak?
I know that for my old BMW, if you follow the maintenance minder, the intervals allowed are pretty long, and 15W-40 is among the grades BMW recommended for the car.

 

[Garak]

The Audi recommended something around 12,500 km. That was high for the time, but it certainly pales in comparison to what most of the German cars call for now.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I never said that 15W40 is not suitable for 20yr old Audi. 15W40 at that time was recommended weight in Europe for pretty much ALL cars!


I realize. My point was that it wouldn't be an instant disaster for a more modern European car, either. It wouldn't be ideal, and you'd certainly lose out on the long drain potential.

I agreed with that. Problem is that regular 15W40 in contraversial 1.8T woould leave depostis that would lead eventually to sludg problems.
In some cars it would be non issue!

 

[fdcg27]

About 7500 miles.
Pretty long on 1991 oils.
Given the oils of the time and the fact that the Audi had a turbo, I would guess that a current dual rated 15W-40 would
be fine in a current VAG turbo.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
About 7500 miles.
Pretty long on 1991 oils.
Given the oils of the time and the fact that the Audi had a turbo, I would guess that a current dual rated 15W-40 would
be fine in a current VAG turbo.

Well, maybe in hot climates. However, turbos today are much smaller, faster, and they require instant lubrication etc.
When I lived in Europe, I drove Lancia Lybra 2.4 JTD. Amazing diesel engine (5cyl). I used always Sellenia oil. I know that whoever used Sellenia oil 10W40 or 5W40 it was long lived engine. Once people switched to 15W40 of some other mfg, turbos would fail and other problems would develop.
I really do not know why that was the case, but it was big deal to use that particular oil. nd it was not cheap. For 10W40 it was $17 per one liter, and around $25 for 5W40!

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
I agreed with that. Problem is that regular 15W40 in contraversial 1.8T woould leave depostis that would lead eventually to sludg problems.


I suppose it would tend to vary, though, with the length of the OCI.

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Pretty long on 1991 oils. Given the oils of the time and the fact that the Audi had a turbo, I would guess that a current dual rated 15W-40 would be fine in a current VAG turbo.


On a short enough interval, I'd concur. I don't know how well the engines in the Audis of the era held up with the 7,500 mile OCIs on the oil of the time, though. Mine had a bit of varnish and some coking, but it certainly wasn't sludged up. I have no idea what the maintenance history was like before I got it.

The coking probably could have been prevented by any reasonable synthetic or more conservative OCIs on the conventional lube. But, it's at over 260,000 km now, and certainly hasn't died.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I agreed with that. Problem is that regular 15W40 in contraversial 1.8T woould leave depostis that would lead eventually to sludg problems.


I suppose it would tend to vary, though, with the length of the OCI.

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Pretty long on 1991 oils. Given the oils of the time and the fact that the Audi had a turbo, I would guess that a current dual rated 15W-40 would be fine in a current VAG turbo.


On a short enough interval, I'd concur. I don't know how well the engines in the Audis of the era held up with the 7,500 mile OCIs on the oil of the time, though. Mine had a bit of varnish and some coking, but it certainly wasn't sludged up. I have no idea what the maintenance history was like before I got it.

The coking probably could have been prevented by any reasonable synthetic or more conservative OCIs on the conventional lube. But, it's at over 260,000 km now, and certainly hasn't died.


I know Audi engines never had any problems in Europe. 1.8 Audi engine with 90 and 112hp were never best, but never had any issues. Drivers really liked 5cyl with 136hp and turbo 5cyl.
In Bosnia drivers were hooked up to Castrol 15W40. That oil had image like GC here today. It was eally remarkable oil. Had good cold start, in summer no issues.
I ran OCI on my Opel's at 10-15000 km!

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: Garak
The Audi recommended something around 12,500 km. That was high for the time, but it certainly pales in comparison to what most of the German cars call for now.
Is this interval OK for the 15w-40 conventional or full synthetic only ?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
I know Audi engines never had any problems in Europe. 1.8 Audi engine with 90 and 112hp were never best, but never had any issues. Drivers really liked 5cyl with 136hp and turbo 5cyl.


Mine was the 5 cylinder with 165 hp. There certainly might have been better oils available in Europe that time, particularly if they were using synthetics for those longer intervals. There certainly is a difference, too, between someone actually taking the car out for a drive and the situation that faced my old Audi under the previous owner. He was a lawyer and all he used it for was to putter around town. He barely put 10,000 km a year on the thing, so I suspect there were a lot of short trips. And, you also know our North American habit of putting 10w-30 or 5w-30 in everything back in those days.

Like I said, it wasn't sludged up, nor was it immaculately clean. The recommended intervals, which might have been a tad optimistic on conventional, were likely followed.

Originally Posted By: fpracha
Is this interval OK for the 15w-40 conventional or full synthetic only ?


It was for conventional. The manual stated to use a quality conventional and that synthetics were not required. There was, however, no prohibition against them nor any recommendation not to use them. As long as they met the contemporary API specification, one was within their recommendations.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I know Audi engines never had any problems in Europe. 1.8 Audi engine with 90 and 112hp were never best, but never had any issues. Drivers really liked 5cyl with 136hp and turbo 5cyl.


Mine was the 5 cylinder with 165 hp. There certainly might have been better oils available in Europe that time, particularly if they were using synthetics for those longer intervals. There certainly is a difference, too, between someone actually taking the car out for a drive and the situation that faced my old Audi under the previous owner. He was a lawyer and all he used it for was to putter around town. He barely put 10,000 km a year on the thing, so I suspect there were a lot of short trips. And, you also know our North American habit of putting 10w-30 or 5w-30 in everything back in those days.

Like I said, it wasn't sludged up, nor was it immaculately clean. The recommended intervals, which might have been a tad optimistic on conventional, were likely followed.

Originally Posted By: fpracha
Is this interval OK for the 15w-40 conventional or full synthetic only ?


It was for conventional. The manual stated to use a quality conventional and that synthetics were not required. There was, however, no prohibition against them nor any recommendation not to use them. As long as they met the contemporary API specification, one was within their recommendations.


Yeah, in the US 5cyl Turbo was little bit weker due to the octane rating and lower compression ratio.
I really liked that engine, although it never had appealing of BMW in-line 6 engines. There was a lot of problems with setting up firing angle on those 5cyl.
In 7 years that I live in the US i found out that sollution for everything is 10W30 or 5W30. When you ask people in oil place they immediately offer you cheapest possible sollution. It is remarkable!
When ever I change oil I always release old oil, put screw back, change filter do some other stuff, and then release again rest of oil that came down the walls of engine. Between two releases of oil passes like 20min. I always release half a quart of oil that stays in the engine. So I never truly grasp concept of 10 minut oil change places.
In one occasion when I was travelling, I stopped to change oil since it was due. So since I was not in my city, I just bought oil in Auto Zone and filter, and went to one of 10 min places. I had to explain to guy how to put filter and how much of oil to put! Even that was a problem, calculatin 4.2 quarts out of 5 quarts I brought!

 

[Garak]

The worst "problem" with the Audi was that it was too easy to change oil on. Everything was right up front, just aft of the bumper, and one can have the filter off and the oil draining in no time, and with no mess.

At the time (and I don't know how much better it's gotten), the Audi/VW dealerships up here weren't using the right oil, even when a VW specification was given. They'd put normal Castrol 5w-30 (Syntec if you were lucky) in TDIs and so forth. Assuming my Audi had been dealer serviced here from the start, I have my doubts that they had any 15w-40 in stock, let alone a 0w-40 or 5w-40. It probably got GTX 5w-30 all along. It wouldn't have been any different at a quick lube place. It certainly didn't blow the motor up, but it certainly wouldn't have been optimal, nor would it have been in accordance with Audi's recommendations.

There's nothing wrong with the cheapest possible solution. One just has to ensure that the solution fits, and many don't. We've all heard stories here about people getting 10w-30 in engines speced for 5w-20, and the reverse.