0W-16 Strength & Durability

[nthach]

Try to find a licensed vehicle in Japan with 200,000 miles on it, like you see here quite commonly. It will be easier to find the Hope Diamond in a dumpster. So to put it in a nutshell, Japan doesn't care about long engine life.

So much so they have established a market for their 3, 4, and 5 year old low mileage engines here. Where even with our emission testing standards, these used engines will pass easily. And are a cheaper alternative to a factory replacement engine for many people.

So for Japan, water thin oil it is, across the board. Because in the grand scheme of things, it simply doesn't matter.

In Japan, the most common car is a kei car - 600cc max engine displacement, it’s 1/2 the size of a Prius or Camry and even smaller than a Fit/Fiat 500/Mini. The Scion iQ was the closest thing to an kei car on US shores. The streets of Japan are crowded and small, and parking is at a premium - most people in the metropolises take transit or ride bikes to get around. While you can get a bigger car, it’s more for the well to do or people in the suburbs.

Yes, the shaken test to get a registration. I’ve seen engines that claim to be “low mileage” JDM engines when in fact, they came from a car that failed shaken or was too expensive to keep running. The used car auctions in Japan are popular for exporters.

 

[JHZR2]

This brings up yet another good point about questioning engine longevity with this stuff. Simply put, the Japanese don't care about long engine life. Because their government has mandated very strict legislation, that makes it all but cost prohibitive to license older vehicles on their roads. It's quite literally cheaper to get a new car. Putting a car on the road there is horribly expensive compared to here.... Especially older one's.

Try to find a licensed vehicle in Japan with 200,000 miles on it, like you see here quite commonly. It will be easier to find the Hope Diamond in a dumpster. So to put it in a nutshell, Japan doesn't care about long engine life.

So much so they have established a market for their 3, 4, and 5 year old low mileage engines here. Where even with our emission testing standards, these used engines will pass easily. And are a cheaper alternative to a factory replacement engine for many people.

So for Japan, water thin oil it is, across the board. Because in the grand scheme of things, it simply doesn't matter.

The question really is, does Japan have CAFE? I’m sure gas is $$$$, but that’s not the question. It is do they have CAFE type requirements. Because otherwise why would they care either. Old engines, new engines, or whatever else.

I suspect it’s a bit more complex than that it doesn’t matter. Especially when we see now thst high mileage engines operating on lower viscosity oils exist. Other factors such as surface finish in a journal, etc. come into play in terms of how much viscosity you need to establish a specific wedge In a bearing. If it’s accomplished through quality manufacturing, and it allows other benefits, then great.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

The question really is, does Japan have CAFE? I’m sure gas is $$$$, but that’s not the question. It is do they have CAFE type requirements. Because otherwise why would they care either. Old engines, new engines, or whatever else.

I suspect it’s a bit more complex than that it doesn’t matter. Especially when we see now thst high mileage engines operating on lower viscosity oils exist. Other factors such as surface finish in a journal, etc. come into play in terms of how much viscosity you need to establish a specific wedge In a bearing. If it’s accomplished through quality manufacturing, and it allows other benefits, then great.

Enacted 2019 for year 2030.

https://theicct.org/publications/ja...9, Japan issued,average for fiscal year 2016.

In June 2019, Japan issued new fuel economy standards for passenger vehicles starting in model year 2030. The standards require an average fleet gasoline-equivalent fuel economy of 25.4 kilometers per liter by 2030, which is a 32.4% improvement over the fleet average for fiscal year 2016.

The 2030 standards also include several improvements over Japan’s 2020 standards. For example, the scope is expanded to electric vehicles (and consequently upstream energy efficiency is considered), the test cycle has changed to the Worldwide Harmonized Light Vehicle Test Procedure (WLTP), and bin-based targets for different vehicle weights are replaced with a linear curve with a minimum fuel economy floor for the heaviest vehicles. The regulatory agencies plan to finalize all regulation details by the end of fiscal year 2020.

The figure below compares Japan’s newest standards with existing passenger car fuel economy requirements in other countries by converting to a common metric and test cycle. As shown, Japan’s standards are less stringent than Europe’s, but they are ahead of the other major vehicle markets, including the United States, Canada, and China.

 

[ZeeOSix]

You're a stitch. I'm interested in learning how so thin an oil can afford good protection. What are the design parameters that make it work? I asked about what makes a 0W-16 protect as well as it does.

Engines that spec xW-16 have some design considerations for that oil, like journal bearings that will still run at an adequate MOFT with reduced HTHS viscosity.

A viscosity thicker than xW-16 can be used in engines specing xW-16, but not the other way around. That's also why the API puts a different API logo on xW-16 oil bottles vs xW-20 and higher bottles, because they don't want xW-16 to be used in engines specing xW-20 or above. Not enough viscosity to support bearings not designed for low viscosiy without causing possible increased wear.

 

[JHZR2]

Enacted 2019 for year 2030.

https://theicct.org/publications/ja...9, Japan issued,average for fiscal year 2016.

Ok, but 20wt oils started getting use in 1999 or earlier. So then what? What did the Japanese automakers not care about to justify use of thst viscosity back then?

I think still it was more about quality manufacturing and QC/QA that enabled better, smoother parts thst then allowed lighter oils which benefited in all fronts.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

Ok, but 20wt oils started getting use in 1999 or earlier. So then what? What did the Japanese automakers not care about to justify use of thst viscosity back then?

I think still it was more about quality manufacturing and QC/QA that enabled better, smoother parts thst then allowed lighter oils which benefited in all fronts.

No no, I agree with you, Japanese vehicles are great, thin oils are resilient and robust though I'm not sure you'd ever see a 0W-16 or light 20 on hard Autobahn etc use, and I think the post about Japanese cars being throwaways is wrong.

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

No no, I agree with you, Japanese vehicles are great, thin oils are resilient and robust though I'm not sure you'd ever see a 0W-16 or light 20 on hard Autobahn etc use, and I think the post about Japanese cars being throwaways is wrong.

Many German vehicles in fact use 0W-20. Of course they have oil coolers and the oils are designed to be very resilient...

Mobil 1 0W-16 AFE lists nearly 70-80% PAO with the balance (besides AN and other oils for additive solubility) being their GTL...

I certainly wouldn't use it in a 1968 Buick LeSabre 350. But certainly a very robust mix for the like TWO ENGINES that actually call for it! I think it would be fine in my mom's Mercury Hybrid actually...

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

Ok, but 20wt oils started getting use in 1999 or earlier. So then what? What did the Japanese automakers not care about to justify use of thst viscosity back then?

I think still it was more about quality manufacturing and QC/QA that enabled better, smoother parts thst then allowed lighter oils which benefited in all fronts.

Many (mainly GM) vehicles from the 1960's-70's list 5W-20 in their manuals for winter use only...

 

[alcyon]

In Malaysia, a 2017/2018 Nissan Rogue aka X-Trail uses a 5w30 ,recommended by Nissan Malaysia.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

Many German vehicles in fact use 0W-20. Of course they have oil coolers and the oils are designed to be very resilient...

Mobil 1 0W-16 AFE lists nearly 70-80% PAO with the balance (besides AN and other oils for additive solubility) being their GTL...

I certainly wouldn't use it in a 1968 Buick LeSabre 350. But certainly a very robust mix for the like TWO ENGINES that actually call for it! I think it would be fine in my mom's Mercury Hybrid actually...

I think they also have huge oil capacity, 8 quarts, 9 quarts, maybe 12 ?

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

Some maybe, but my friends Audi A4 calls for 5 qts of 0W-20. The oil cooler is more important than the capacity I suspect...

 

[billt460]

The question really is, does Japan have CAFE?

Not in the sense of the word like we do here. But they LOVE thin oil, (for whatever reason), and have extremely strict licensing standards, that get VERY expensive as the vehicle gets older. Point being, is even IF these water thin oils cut down on engine life, (and I'm not trying to argue either way), they would never know or care about it, because no one keeps their cars long enough to find out.

So saying, "Japan has used thin oils for YEARS!", really has no bearing for people in this country who drive their cars as long as they possibly can. Rather, you could compare Japan's take on this to people in this country who lease every 3 years. Why would they care what's in the crankcase, as far as long term protection, when they have no intentions of being attached to the car for more than 3 years anyway? And that is with severe mileage limits. To them this whole 0W-16 thing is a waste of their time from a longevity standpoint..... Basically the same as Japan.

 

[sk_pete]

Shel, HTHS is measured at 150C. It’s a great data point if that oil is going to be run on the autobahn, or pushed hard in a high performance engine.

there are quite a few stories told by car owners, when they travelled south to croatia, engine became louder or even having some technical issues.
this all happening on normal highway speeds, and typical summer temperatures.

 

[billt460]

there are quite a few stories told by car owners, when they travelled south to croatia, engine became louder or even having some technical issues.
this all happening on normal highway speeds, and typical summer temperatures.

As I said in a previous post. With my 2018 Toyota Camry idling at operating temperature in my garage with a crankcase full of 0W-30, the car is noticeably much quieter. That alone is enough to keep me away from anything thinner. And as far as fuel mileage, I can't tell ANY difference.

 

[demarpaint]

As has been discussed many times in these kinds of threads, when film thickness between moving parts due to viscosity (the MOFT) can't cut it (ie, when metal-to-metal contact happens due to zero film thickness), then the film strength (from the AF/AW additives) of the oil has to kick in to help reduce wear.

The first line of wear protection is from the viscosity, and the second line of protection is from the film strenght. Going as low as possible on HTHS viscosity essentially gives less headroom protection in the film thickness, and more reliance on the oil film strength.

Well said, however often forgotten and why these discussions keep coming back time and time again. A sticky might be helpful.

 

[Danimal1q2w3]

Just wait until 0W-8 comes out.

I’m actually excited to see how ludicrous it gets down the line

 

[Shel_B]

there are quite a few stories told by car owners, when they travelled south to croatia, engine became louder or even having some technical issues.
this all happening on normal highway speeds, and typical summer temperatures.

What technical issues did these engines have? What cars had problems? What's a normal highway speed in the area, likewise a typical summer temperature? Thanks!

 

[Shel_B]

Engines that spec xW-16 have some design considerations for that oil, like journal bearings that will still run at an adequate MOFT with reduced HTHS viscosity.

A viscosity thicker than xW-16 can be used in engines specing xW-16, but not the other way around. That's also why the API puts a different API logo on xW-16 oil bottles vs xW-20 and higher bottles, because they don't want xW-16 to be used in engines specing xW-20 or above. Not enough viscosity to support bearings not designed for low viscosiy without causing possible increased wear.

That certainly addresses one of my initial questions. Let's flesh that out a bit more. Generally, in what way are journal bearings designed differently for 0W-16 oil? What other design differences might be incorporated into the engine to allow for the use of thinner oil?

You use the term xW-20 and xW-16. Is there a 5W-16 or any other xW-16 besides 0W?

Might a roller-bearing crank offer some advantage when using thinner oils?

 

[Shel_B]

Why don't you look at the VOA got TGMO 0w-16 that is on this forum?

I couldn't find one. The only 0W-16 VOA I could find was for M1.

 

[supton]

I'm going to wait and see. Will run 0W16 until more evidence comes in that it's the devil's brew. 10yr/200k is my metric: I will either get my money's worth by then & failures will be hard(er) to distinguish from random failures--or not. After 10 years up here it'll be a rusty mess & well past 200k, and not of any value anymore.

If nothing else, it's going into my wife's car who doesn't drive that hard; the engine is well isolated from everything (DBW with CVT and electric motor, thus the ECU has huge oversight as to how hard to push the engine at any time; it can ramp up/down load as it sees fit).