0W-16 Oil....... Really ??

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Shannow
And no, 0w16 is only the last couple of years.


Wrong. The stuff has been around for the last 20 years... Period. And all of your double talk and B.S. doesn't change that. It's not "new" or "sudden". Anymore than it will cause your engine to wear prematurely because it's too thin.


This is SAE J300 from 2009:

This is the 2015 version (thanks to member Widman):

And to provide a quote:

Quote:
On April 1, 2013 the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) introduced a new viscosity grade called SAE 16. This is a new high temperature viscosity grade hence it's not 16W just simply 16 or SAE 16. This is the lowest high temerature SAE engine oil viscosity grade yet, replacing SAE 20 in this role. The introduction of this viscosity grade is another step towards motor oils providing better and better fuel economy and such oils will most likely to be first recommended by companies that emphasize fuel economy oils (e.g. Ford, Honda).

When the first SAE 16 oils will appear (likely as 0W16 and 5W16 oils) they will only be suitable to be used in vehicles where the engine is designed to operate with such a low viscosity oil. Just as 5W20 and 0W20 oils these oils will also be unsuitable to be used in older engine designs since it would not provide sufficient wear protection on operating temperature.


So the SAE 16 grade has been around for 5 years as of April 1st.

The problem appears to be that you don't want to hear what Shannow's saying but rather what you THINK he's saying, because that allows you to perpetuate this perceived quarrel you have been engaged in with him. That doesn't change the fact that, when this thread is viewed from an outside perspective, that he's provided some valuable information. Could he be less crass? Perhaps, but then that would require the same from you. He's responding in-kind from what I can see

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Shannow
And no, 0w16 is only the last couple of years.


Wrong. The stuff has been around for the last 20 years... Period. And all of your double talk and B.S. doesn't change that. It's not "new" or "sudden". Anymore than it will cause your engine to wear prematurely because it's too thin.

Then why did you start this thread with a surprised sense that your new car was using 0W-16 that you've never heard of before?

0W-16 hasn't been used in this country very long. If it was, BITOG members would have been discussing it for many years. Ive seen 100s of threads about 0W-20 and 5W-20 in the last 5 years, but hardly anything about 0W-16, especially about someone running it in their car. And I think your whole "surprise" and the reason you posted this thread is based on that.

Shannow is trying to show you why it's now showing up in this country, but you refuse to accept the information and keep arguing with people who know way more about oil.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Wrong. The stuff has been around for the last 20 years... Period. And all of your double talk and B.S. doesn't change that. It's not "new" or "sudden". Anymore than it will cause your engine to wear prematurely because it's too thin.

Bill, take a look at the various iterations of SAE J300 over the years. Despite what anyone puts on a motor oil label, 0w-16 did not exist until SAE J300 said so, and that's fairly recent.

I cannot put 5-30 on a motor oil label and say that's a proper viscosity (5w-30 is proper) any more than I could have said 0w-16 ten years ago. Grades are either allowed by SAE J300, or they are not, despite what RP, HKS, or any other boutique blender says, or even what a major might put on a racing oil label.

Look here for a 1999 version. There are two interesting things there. First, back then, there was no grade lower than 20. Also, note that the HTHS minimum of 0w-40, 5w-40, and 10w-40 is way lower than what it is now - these are the 10w-40 options that alarmed GM all these years. The 20 grade has certainly been around for longer than two decades, in fact much, much longer than that, into automotive antiquity.

 

[virginoil]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: virginoil
Stupid OEM manufacturers who design and build vehicles...


As opposed to much smarter consumers who buy and drive them?

Narrh, can't blame the consumers, its the OEMs they should build only engines that require a grade of 5w-30 or thicker.

It would save over 30 pages of speculation here.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Garak
0w-16 did not exist until SAE J300 said so, and that's fairly recent.


Something either exists, or it doesn't.

Again:

https://noln.net/2017/06/30/skinny-ow-16-oil/

"Although it may sound new and scary, 0W-16 oils have been in use for almost two decades in Japan."

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Garak
0w-16 did not exist until SAE J300 said so, and that's fairly recent.


Something either exists, or it doesn't.

Again:

https://noln.net/2017/06/30/skinny-ow-16-oil/

"Although it may sound new and scary, 0W-16 oils have been in use for almost two decades in Japan."


Until it is identified as a grade by the SAE, it doesn't exist as an SAE standard. The SAE is the body that defines oil grades.

The Japanese had to propose, then get it ratified by the SAE in order for it to be accepted as an SAE grade. The same goes for SAE 12 and SAE 8, which came out in 2015, both products of the Japanese OEM development process.

The SAE defines the parameters for each grade, such as HTHS, upper and lower viscosity limits....etc.

There are all kinds of made up oil grades out there that don't exist in the SAE table peddled by various blenders. But these are not standardized because there is no standard defining them and they do not show up in J300.

You could backyard Bill's home brew 1w-17 and it could have any viscosity characteristics you wanted. James down the road could then come up with his own 1w-17 and it could be entirely different from yours. It doesn't mean anything because neither the 1W or the SAE 17 part of Jim and Bill's oils are official SAE grades, so there are no standards defining them. Now, if you want to submit your 17 grade to the SAE, then upper and lower limits for viscosity, a limit on HTHS...etc will all need to be defined and approved. Once that takes place, the grade is then officially submitted to J300 and becomes part of the SAE grading system.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The Japanese had to propose, then get it ratified by the SAE in order for it to be accepted as an SAE grade.


I understand, and agree. But again that in itself doesn't mean the stuff is "non existent", just because you couldn't buy it at Auto Zone. 0W-16 viscosity oil has been running in automotive engines for almost 2 decades. No, it may not have been, "approved", "allowed", or "certified" by the SAE. But fact is it was being run and evaluated 100 ways to Sunday, by God knows how many engineers. For what amounts to most likely millions of accumulated miles, in all but every condition imaginable that it will ever possibly encounter, in the close to 20 years that it's been around. It is anything but "new".

This is all no different than drugs and the FDA. There are all but countless prescription drugs available in Europe and other countries that are not sold here. Because they have not been approved or certified by the FDA. That doesn't mean they, "don't exist". Just because your doctor can't write you a prescription for it at Walgreen's. The Japs didn't "invent" this stuff on Monday, and submit it for SAE approval on Tuesday.

And the fact that I personally haven't heard of 0W-16 has no bearing on anything. I don't research or waste my time reading about motor oils that I have no practical use for. I'm not an, "oil nut" like many are here. Before I purchased this new Camry I had been driving the same vehicles for many years. I used what they required. When I bought this new Toyota, I saw the 0W-16 requirement and started this thread. I didn't know, (but should have expected), it was going to turn into yet another "thick vs. thin",..... "it only exists because of the government", 20 page petty argument. Exactly like all the rest have. That was my mistake. You have my assurance that it won't ever happen again.

 

[Patman]

If you want to get technical, 0w16 oil has been around as long as Mobil 1 0w20 AFE has been around, because after a few thousand miles it always thins out to a 0w16 anyways!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: billt460
I understand, and agree. But again that in itself doesn't mean the stuff is "non existent", just because you couldn't buy it at Auto Zone. 0W-16 viscosity oil has been running in automotive engines for almost 2 decades. No, it may not have been, "approved", "allowed", or "certified" by the SAE.


The designation doesn't officially exist until the SAE says it does, who then as I noted, define the parameters for the grade, just like they had to do with SAE 12 and SAE 8.

Originally Posted By: billt460
But fact is it was being run and evaluated 100 ways to Sunday, by God knows how many engineers. For what amounts to most likely millions of accumulated miles, in all but every condition imaginable that it will ever possibly encounter, in the close to 20 years that it's been around. It is anything but "new".


I don't disagree that the Japanese OEM's were toying with lighter oils, which then became SAE 16, 12 and 8. But the designations for those grades were, at the most, suggestions, until the SAE ratified them. This was a big deal, because what was being proposed was the splitting up of the range previous defined by the SAE 20 designation. Also, since they were tested by multiple OEM's, it is not clear as to whether there was any sort of inter-company standardization as to what constituted what proposed grade. Both 12 and 8 came on the scene later, so what might have been an SAE 16 to Toyota may have effectively been an SAE 12 to Honda for example.

It was, and still is, a big deal, as this testing and subsequent push for adoption appears to be exclusive to the Japanese OEM's at this juncture. Their ability to successfully lobby the SAE into breaking up the SAE 20 range into these other grades is, IMHO, a pretty big step, given it comes from one development market but is now scoped globally after being officially integrated into J300.

I tend to look at it as the development process and testing for the thinner grades of oil that eventually were to be defined as SAE 16, 12 and 8 has taken place over what amounts to a 20 year span. These grades were then formally defined and introduced in 2013 and 2015 respectively.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Patman
If you want to get technical, 0w16 oil has been around as long as Mobil 1 0w20 AFE has been around, because after a few thousand miles it always thins out to a 0w16 anyways!

Given the previous limits for the SAE 20 designation under SAE J300, not it didn't. What you are observing is the result of breaking up that range into designations that are far narrower than for any grade above it. Look at the difference between SAE 20 and SAE 30 and then between 16 and 20 for example.

 

[PimTac]

It sounds like the thinner oils were in existence but only used for the Japan domestic market. Do they need SAE certification for that scenario?

As someone mentioned previously, many drugs are used overseas but not in the USA due to the FDA not approving them. It’s only relatively recently that I’ve seen UHT milk here in the states but it has been available for years elsewhere, as another example.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Patman
If you want to get technical, 0w16 oil has been around as long as Mobil 1 0w20 AFE has been around, because after a few thousand miles it always thins out to a 0w16 anyways!

Given the previous limits for the SAE 20 designation under SAE J300, not it didn't. What you are observing is the result of breaking up that range into designations that are far narrower than for any grade above it. Look at the difference between SAE 20 and SAE 30 and then between 16 and 20 for example.


Yes, most definitely. 0W20s "never sheared out of grade", until they had a grade to shear into. Was laughable.

WRT the Japanese using off grade light oils, yes, they did...there's papers around showing that they did.

Why, in the Japanese market did they do it ?

Per their own admission...Fuel economy and carbon emissions.

One must also consider how they use their vehicles...I'll wheel this out again. Where would you consider the Japanese use their cars ?

BUT, and here's the rub using the Japanese market as the basis for the argument.

Manufacturers under CAFE make compromises that on the whole add up to a good consumer outcome, reduced lifetime operating costs. Per the Honda papers "Improved fuel economy while still providing acceptable wear"...but it's in a different market, different operating environment..

You can bet that the number of Engines on the road getting to 100,000 miles on the Japanese domestic off grade oils is/was virtually zero.

They don't keep/operate their cars that long...they export a million vehicles a year used with under 60,000 miles, and scrap 4-5M more.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Patman
If you want to get technical, 0w16 oil has been around as long as Mobil 1 0w20 AFE has been around, because after a few thousand miles it always thins out to a 0w16 anyways!

Given the previous limits for the SAE 20 designation under SAE J300, not it didn't. What you are observing is the result of breaking up that range into designations that are far narrower than for any grade above it. Look at the difference between SAE 20 and SAE 30 and then between 16 and 20 for example.


Yes, most definitely. 0W20s "never sheared out of grade", until they had a grade to shear into. Was laughable.

WRT the Japanese using off grade light oils, yes, they did...there's papers around showing that they did.

Why, in the Japanese market did they do it ?

Per their own admission...Fuel economy and carbon emissions.

One must also consider how they use their vehicles...I'll wheel this out again. Where would you consider the Japanese use their cars ?

BUT, and here's the rub using the Japanese market as the basis for the argument.

Manufacturers under CAFE make compromises that on the whole add up to a good consumer outcome, reduced lifetime operating costs. Per the Honda papers "Improved fuel economy while still providing acceptable wear"...but it's in a different market, different operating environment..

You can bet that the number of Engines on the road getting to 100,000 miles on the Japanese domestic off grade oils is/was virtually zero.

They don't keep/operate their cars that long...they export a million vehicles a year used with under 60,000 miles, and scrap 4-5M more.




Good point. Japan has strict vehicle inspections in place. Car turnover is heavy. The people that do have cars are generally more well off. The average person in the urban areas use mass transit which is efficient as we know. Also, Japan leads in energy conservation because they have limited energy production. This is even more so after the Great Tohuko Earthquake of 2011. A lot of production never came back online.

 

[Gokhan]

Autobahn driving... Have you ever been to Germany? Only the left lane is the fast lane and you'd better not be in a Japanese car on the left lane when an Audi is behind you trying to drive 200 MPH. The truth is that people don't drive any faster there unless the road is open and they have a performance car. So, the left lane is for Audis and alike; the right lane is for slow trucks, and the middle lane is for everyone else who drive in sane speeds around 60 MPH.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
It sounds like the thinner oils were in existence but only used for the Japan domestic market. Do they need SAE certification for that scenario?

As someone mentioned previously, many drugs are used overseas but not in the USA due to the FDA not approving them. It’s only relatively recently that I’ve seen UHT milk here in the states but it has been available for years elsewhere, as another example.


Most people in this country don't realize that it is a different world in Japan when it comes to automobile ownership, driving, and cost. There is no law “requiring” engine replacement at a certain mileage. That is a urban myth propagated by importers and car owners who simply don’t know or understand the situation in Japan. The high taxes, (that are assessed on an annual basis), insurance premiums, gas costs, and especially the safety inspection / registration, (that occurs ever 2 years), combine to keep turnover rates of vehicles high. Not engines wearing out or giving up due to the use of thinner oils. That is the least of their problems.

For example, the Safety inspection for your typical car, (say Toyota Camry / Honda Accord type) can typically cost $2,000 each time! New vehicles have a 3 year grace period before they are required to submit for the Safety Inspection. In other words, for a 10 year old car, you will have already paid over $8,000, just in Safety Inspection fees!

And don’t forget, gas over in Japan is also typically four times the cost of here in the U.S. Mileage is kept low on the vehicles as EVERYONE, (unless you're fabulously wealthy), uses alternative transportation to get around. Most folks use the trains for local and medium distance traveling or commuting.

Further distances are taken by airplane, and local transportation done by either bicycle or bus. In that society, your car tends to be a status symbol more than anything else. It becomes almost impossible as a United States citizen, when you consider all of this, to relate to Japanese car ownership. It's almost like owning a private plane in that regard. Because most everything associated with it is under some type of strict, expensive government mandated control. And makes ownership very expensive as a direct result.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Autobahn driving... Have you ever been to Germany? Only the left lane is the fast lane and you'd better not be in a Japanese car on the left lane when an Audi is behind you trying to drive 200 MPH. The truth is that people don't drive any faster there unless the road is open and they have a performance car. So, the left lane is for Audis and alike, right lane is for slow trucks and the middle lane is for everyone else who drive in sane speeds around 60 MPH.


Very true. I get so tired of people talking as if the Autobahn is some type of racetrack, where you don't drive fast, you fly low. The truth is much like Japan, many European countries have exorbitant fuel cost. So most people who drive any type of distance, do so in small engine compacts that deliver good fuel economy. And they don't drive them any faster than they do here on the Interstates. The high dollar performance cars you see there, going at very high speed rates are not common at all compared to all the other much slower traffic.

 

[NGRhodes]

Most people drove around 90mph on the clear bits on the Autobahns when I was on them. I had a moving average of 70mph driving across France
on the Autoroutes.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: PimTac
It sounds like the thinner oils were in existence but only used for the Japan domestic market. Do they need SAE certification for that scenario?

As someone mentioned previously, many drugs are used overseas but not in the USA due to the FDA not approving them. It’s only relatively recently that I’ve seen UHT milk here in the states but it has been available for years elsewhere, as another example.


Most people in this country don't realize that it is a different world in Japan when it comes to automobile ownership, driving, and cost. There is no law “requiring” engine replacement at a certain mileage. That is a urban myth propagated by importers and car owners who simply don’t know or understand the situation in Japan. The high taxes, (that are assessed on an annual basis), insurance premiums, gas costs, and especially the safety inspection / registration, (that occurs ever 2 years), combine to keep turnover rates of vehicles high. Not engines wearing out or giving up due to the use of thinner oils. That is the least of their problems.

For example, the Safety inspection for your typical car, (say Toyota Camry / Honda Accord type) can typically cost $2,000 each time! New vehicles have a 3 year grace period before they are required to submit for the Safety Inspection. In other words, for a 10 year old car, you will have already paid over $8,000, just in Safety Inspection fees!

And don’t forget, gas over in Japan is also typically four times the cost of here in the U.S. Mileage is kept low on the vehicles as EVERYONE, (unless you're fabulously wealthy), uses alternative transportation to get around. Most folks use the trains for local and medium distance traveling or commuting.

Further distances are taken by airplane, and local transportation done by either bicycle or bus. In that society, your car tends to be a status symbol more than anything else. It becomes almost impossible as a United States citizen, when you consider all of this, to relate to Japanese car ownership. It's almost like owning a private plane in that regard. Because most everything associated with it is under some type of strict, expensive government mandated control. And makes ownership very expensive as a direct result.





Spot on comment. It really is different in other parts of the world. Singapore is another example which is even stricter as you must get permission to buy a vehicle with all their rules and regulations. The costs of a car are doubled or more.

Japan transportation is just first cabin when it comes to efficiency. They apologize when the trains are 30 seconds late. I’ve spent some time there and enjoyed the train system as well as the subways. One thing I’ve never done is to ride the Shinkasen which I hope to do someday. Tokyo to Osaka is only 90 minutes. As efficient as their system is, it is really something to watch. Anyone who has flown out of Narita will know.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Autobahn driving... Have you ever been to Germany? Only the left lane is the fast lane and you'd better not be in a Japanese car on the left lane when an Audi is behind you trying to drive 200 MPH.


Left lane is the "thick oil lane".

Cars driven in Japan get very little high speed driving, mostly just cruzing at low speeds st low RPM. Maybe a 30 second burst of speed if they are lucky. -10W0 would probably still work for them.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Autobahn driving... Have you ever been to Germany? Only the left lane is the fast lane and you'd better not be in a Japanese car on the left lane when an Audi is behind you trying to drive 200 MPH.


Left lane is the "thick oil lane".

Cars driven in Japan get very little high speed driving, mostly just cruzing at low speeds st low RPM. Maybe a 30 second burst of speed if they are lucky. -10W0 would probably still work for them.

Japanese bikes can hold their own..