If Beemer is mainly used on auto bahn, then by all means use a 10w40. If I was racing it, I would go with 10W30. I don't like doing post mortems on Beemers.
10psi/1000rpm rule and running lower viscosity oil
- Thread starter RangerGress
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Originally Posted By: RangerGress
I would like to follow the advice of the engineers that designed my engine. But no one seems to know what the engineers advice is. All we know is what the committee of accountants, marketers and lawyers approved. Accountants will tell you the hard truth of $$, even if you look at things differently. Marketers will lie like a dog, and lawyers want to ensure that it's always your fault.
All that and CAFE considerations too. Best is buy a vehicle with an engine also sold outside the relm of CAFE, then see what the recommendation is there.
But when it doubt go 30 weight.
I would like to follow the advice of the engineers that designed my engine. But no one seems to know what the engineers advice is. All we know is what the committee of accountants, marketers and lawyers approved. Accountants will tell you the hard truth of $$, even if you look at things differently. Marketers will lie like a dog, and lawyers want to ensure that it's always your fault.
All that and CAFE considerations too. Best is buy a vehicle with an engine also sold outside the relm of CAFE, then see what the recommendation is there.
But when it doubt go 30 weight.
Geez guys, I'm away for a day and the information density of this thread drops into the basement.
Ok, here's what I found at the track:
Oil load 1 was 5qts Mobil1 5W20, 1qt 10W30.
Oil load 2 was 3qts 5W20, 3qts 10W30.
100deg visc/HTHS
5W20 8.8/2.62
10W30 10/3.09
Test rpm was 4k, run for about 60secs right after coming off 25min of hot laps.
Oil load 1 32psi.
Oil load 2 38psi.
Thoughts:
1) Clearly this indicates that my attemp to test the 10psi/1000rpm rule in my garage was pathetic.
2) Someone mentioned in an earlier post of using oil analysis to help determine this, and that makes great sense. I could run a low viscosity oil and then the sample would tell me if there's bearing material in it. Is there a way that this might mislead me? That is to say there might be a problem occuring due to insufficient lubrication but oil analysis (Blackstone) could miss it.
3) Mobil1 0W20 makes me a little nervous. The oil pressure was low and the HTHS is low.
4) I bought some Redline 5W20 while at the track and I thought that I'd experiment with it next. I've read that due to their outdated chemistry their oils oxidize rapidly, but I'm not looking for it to last 15k miles.
Redline 5W20 100deg Visc 10.6, HTHS 3.3.
Editorial commentary.
1) It's very easy to treat each other poorly in the relatively anonymous land of the Internet. Folks are not at their best when anonymous. But their behavior, when anonymous, really tells you a lot about them. My thread my rules. Be respectful of each other pls.
2) Docs vs. engineers. I had a buddy that went to med school after graduating with me as an ME. He reported that medical school wasn't harder, just different. Medical school required far more memorization, where as engineering required for more understanding. So the level of difficult was mostly a matter of how adept you were at one vs. the other. His take was that the engineering program was harder, but again, it's relative to the individual's strengths.
Ok, here's what I found at the track:
Oil load 1 was 5qts Mobil1 5W20, 1qt 10W30.
Oil load 2 was 3qts 5W20, 3qts 10W30.
100deg visc/HTHS
5W20 8.8/2.62
10W30 10/3.09
Test rpm was 4k, run for about 60secs right after coming off 25min of hot laps.
Oil load 1 32psi.
Oil load 2 38psi.
Thoughts:
1) Clearly this indicates that my attemp to test the 10psi/1000rpm rule in my garage was pathetic.
2) Someone mentioned in an earlier post of using oil analysis to help determine this, and that makes great sense. I could run a low viscosity oil and then the sample would tell me if there's bearing material in it. Is there a way that this might mislead me? That is to say there might be a problem occuring due to insufficient lubrication but oil analysis (Blackstone) could miss it.
3) Mobil1 0W20 makes me a little nervous. The oil pressure was low and the HTHS is low.
4) I bought some Redline 5W20 while at the track and I thought that I'd experiment with it next. I've read that due to their outdated chemistry their oils oxidize rapidly, but I'm not looking for it to last 15k miles.
Redline 5W20 100deg Visc 10.6, HTHS 3.3.
Editorial commentary.
1) It's very easy to treat each other poorly in the relatively anonymous land of the Internet. Folks are not at their best when anonymous. But their behavior, when anonymous, really tells you a lot about them. My thread my rules. Be respectful of each other pls.
2) Docs vs. engineers. I had a buddy that went to med school after graduating with me as an ME. He reported that medical school wasn't harder, just different. Medical school required far more memorization, where as engineering required for more understanding. So the level of difficult was mostly a matter of how adept you were at one vs. the other. His take was that the engineering program was harder, but again, it's relative to the individual's strengths.
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Originally Posted By: RangerGress
.....
2) Someone mentioned in an earlier post of using oil analysis to help determine this, and that makes great sense. I could run a low viscosity oil and then the sample would tell me if there's bearing material in it. Is there a way that this might mislead me? That is to say there might be a problem occuring due to insufficient lubrication but oil analysis (Blackstone) could miss it......
Any data you can aquire is better than getting zero data. An oil analysis will be most useful if you have previous data under similar operating conditions; if this is the first analysis it will be less useful.
Other engine problems such as detonation can lead to high metals in the oil. Use oil samples as a tool, not as the full gospel and you will be way ahead of the game.
32 psi after full operating temp at 4000 rpm doesn't scare me, but it isn't my engine.
Joe
.....
2) Someone mentioned in an earlier post of using oil analysis to help determine this, and that makes great sense. I could run a low viscosity oil and then the sample would tell me if there's bearing material in it. Is there a way that this might mislead me? That is to say there might be a problem occuring due to insufficient lubrication but oil analysis (Blackstone) could miss it......
Any data you can aquire is better than getting zero data. An oil analysis will be most useful if you have previous data under similar operating conditions; if this is the first analysis it will be less useful.
Other engine problems such as detonation can lead to high metals in the oil. Use oil samples as a tool, not as the full gospel and you will be way ahead of the game.
32 psi after full operating temp at 4000 rpm doesn't scare me, but it isn't my engine.
Joe
This is what i found in the bimmer forums.
I have read many post regarding poor running and ' just off cold stalling problems etc .
The Ford Zetec engine is well know in the industry for suffering similar problems and this is caused by the wrong grade engine oil being fitted . The engine has a load sensor on the crankshaft and the extra drag from a thick grade of oil fools it into thinking the engine is under more load than it actually is which then causes 'over fueling of the engine .
The cure is simply to fill with the correct ACEA A1 / B1 5w30 grade of oil rather than the commonly used 10w40 . Problem is worse in cold weather .
The N42 unit is also designed to run on a very low viscocity engine oil and in fact this engine had its own oil specification i.e Long Life 01FE .
In theory this engine could suffer in the same way as the Ford unit if the correct low viscocity oil in not used . Oil should be 0w30 or 5w30 fully synthetic . As far as I am aware the LL01 FE grade was only ever made by Castrol and is not now available . The closest grade readily available would be one meeting Volkswagon 506.00 506.01 of which there are many .>>
I have read many post regarding poor running and ' just off cold stalling problems etc .
The Ford Zetec engine is well know in the industry for suffering similar problems and this is caused by the wrong grade engine oil being fitted . The engine has a load sensor on the crankshaft and the extra drag from a thick grade of oil fools it into thinking the engine is under more load than it actually is which then causes 'over fueling of the engine .
The cure is simply to fill with the correct ACEA A1 / B1 5w30 grade of oil rather than the commonly used 10w40 . Problem is worse in cold weather .
The N42 unit is also designed to run on a very low viscocity engine oil and in fact this engine had its own oil specification i.e Long Life 01FE .
In theory this engine could suffer in the same way as the Ford unit if the correct low viscocity oil in not used . Oil should be 0w30 or 5w30 fully synthetic . As far as I am aware the LL01 FE grade was only ever made by Castrol and is not now available . The closest grade readily available would be one meeting Volkswagon 506.00 506.01 of which there are many .>>
Oops. Redline 5W20's specs are 100deg Visc 9.1 & HTHS 3.3. Which as you can see is a high shear strength for a relatively low viscosity oil.
Quote:
The engine has a load sensor on the crankshaft and the extra drag from a thick grade of oil fools it into thinking the engine is under more load than it actually is which then causes 'over fueling of the engine.
But isn't the thicker viscosity acutally the load and then it would not be fooled, but actually read the higher load caused by the oil, and so should run fine?
Quote:
Redline 5W20's specs are 100deg Visc 9.1 & HTHS 3.3. Which as you can see is a high shear strength for a relatively low viscosity oil.
Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. HTHS of a typical PCMO 30 weight oil. You should be able to run this oil with confidence as it will act like a 30 weight in the bearings, or so it seems to me anyway.
The engine has a load sensor on the crankshaft and the extra drag from a thick grade of oil fools it into thinking the engine is under more load than it actually is which then causes 'over fueling of the engine.
But isn't the thicker viscosity acutally the load and then it would not be fooled, but actually read the higher load caused by the oil, and so should run fine?
Quote:
Redline 5W20's specs are 100deg Visc 9.1 & HTHS 3.3. Which as you can see is a high shear strength for a relatively low viscosity oil.
Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. HTHS of a typical PCMO 30 weight oil. You should be able to run this oil with confidence as it will act like a 30 weight in the bearings, or so it seems to me anyway.
i think that unless you don't care about damaging the engine, i would just ask people with the same engine what they race with, and i suspect it would probably be a 40
if i wanted to squeeze an extra 2-3% hp out of it and risk damage or accelerated wear, then i would be doing blends w/ lighter oils like you're doing. and still feel uncomfortable holding it at 4K for 60 sec right after a 25 min session
oil pres stabilizes in about 1 sec. 5 sec seems enough to get a good reading
if i wanted to squeeze an extra 2-3% hp out of it and risk damage or accelerated wear, then i would be doing blends w/ lighter oils like you're doing. and still feel uncomfortable holding it at 4K for 60 sec right after a 25 min session
Originally Posted By: [RT
ProjUltraZ] i think that unless you don't care about damaging the engine, i would just ask people with the same engine what they race with, and i suspect it would probably be a 40
if i wanted to squeeze an extra 2-3% hp out of it and risk damage or accelerated wear, then i would be doing blends w/ lighter oils like you're doing. and still feel uncomfortable holding it at 4K for 60 sec right after a 25 min session
oil pres stabilizes in about 1 sec. 5 sec seems enough to get a good reading
Sadly, the folks that race in my class seem to depend on me to conduct the experiments. You wouldn't believe all the hours I poured into brake pads, F/R biasing and brake cooling. At least the oil manufacturers publish data.
When a person is in a death struggle for a 0.2mph speed advantage at turn exit, a 1% hp advantage would be significant. 2% would be a wet dream. With 3% I'd rule the world .
ProjUltraZ] i think that unless you don't care about damaging the engine, i would just ask people with the same engine what they race with, and i suspect it would probably be a 40
if i wanted to squeeze an extra 2-3% hp out of it and risk damage or accelerated wear, then i would be doing blends w/ lighter oils like you're doing. and still feel uncomfortable holding it at 4K for 60 sec right after a 25 min session
Sadly, the folks that race in my class seem to depend on me to conduct the experiments. You wouldn't believe all the hours I poured into brake pads, F/R biasing and brake cooling. At least the oil manufacturers publish data.
When a person is in a death struggle for a 0.2mph speed advantage at turn exit, a 1% hp advantage would be significant. 2% would be a wet dream. With 3% I'd rule the world .
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i hear ya, i guess you're having the nocturals
cuz going to a 20W from a 30 or 40 would prob give 1-2% more hp at the top end
i suspect the only definitive answer will be a teardown after a few sessions as a previous poster said (in this or another thread)
reminds me of the F1 analogy using 5W, 10W straight grade, then engine teardown after two races. prob less than 1,000 miles incl shakedown, practice, quali, race. and using the best materials, QC money can buy
i suspect the only definitive answer will be a teardown after a few sessions as a previous poster said (in this or another thread)
reminds me of the F1 analogy using 5W, 10W straight grade, then engine teardown after two races. prob less than 1,000 miles incl shakedown, practice, quali, race. and using the best materials, QC money can buy
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. HTHS of a typical PCMO 30 weight oil. You should be able to run this oil with confidence as it will act like a 30 weight in the bearings, or so it seems to me anyway.
i actually ran the Redline 5W-20 in a LT1 camaro for a month or two, incl 1 autox. It ran fine, slightly more power but i just couldn't sleep well at night and didn't want to risk an engine teardown so i went back to 30. but it felt good
Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. HTHS of a typical PCMO 30 weight oil. You should be able to run this oil with confidence as it will act like a 30 weight in the bearings, or so it seems to me anyway.
i actually ran the Redline 5W-20 in a LT1 camaro for a month or two, incl 1 autox. It ran fine, slightly more power but i just couldn't sleep well at night and didn't want to risk an engine teardown so i went back to 30. but it felt good
As I recall on the Redline site, they say you can run one grade thinner with Redline and I am pretty sure it's because of the HTHS. As I recall, Redlineoil.com has a chart showing how Redline holds up against a thicker grade of conventional. The other thing is to call Redline and talk to their chemist, Dave. He may be able to give you some good info for racing applications.
if this is an m20b25 the specd oil is 20w50 in summer and 10w30 in the winter. most people i know run 20w50 while racing. i myself dont race my bimmer so i cant really help, sorry...i have read that people who run 5w and 10w oils on motors that do not spec such lightweight oils experience cavitation on bearings....
Originally Posted By: RangerGress
Oops. Redline 5W20's specs are 100deg Visc 9.1 & HTHS 3.3. Which as you can see is a high shear strength for a relatively low viscosity oil.
Have had chance to test redline oil yet, and if you have what were the results?
Oops. Redline 5W20's specs are 100deg Visc 9.1 & HTHS 3.3. Which as you can see is a high shear strength for a relatively low viscosity oil.
Have had chance to test redline oil yet, and if you have what were the results?
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
AEHaas - You said this;
"Do not be afraid of "thin" oils."
I'm sorry but generalisations can also be fraught with many problems
It is always very wise to know what the manufacturer has as a bottom line for the application! I for one would not defy the likes of CAT when they say certain applications require a minimum (stated) viscosity!
And I can assure you that using a 5W-40 synthetic lubricant with an HTHS vis of around 4 (minimum allowed is 3.7) in my engines that cost $50000 or so each would be the lowest viscosity spread I would be using - in my application! Arguing with an engine manufacturer about the use of an "out of spec" lubricant is useless and such use will kill Warranty claims believe me!
I have seen it many many times and in a wide variety of engine families
Likewise I know of various Porsche engines that will not survive very long on "thin" non specified lubricants
This Board's conributors have a lot of expertise. We should be mindful that not all on here are experts in the field of lubricants or engine technologies
I have always been a "thin" oil proponent - for over 50years! For instance I have used SAE20W-20 lubricants in BMC "A" series engines and VWs for almost as long - but try using such a lubricant in a BMC Mini! Or in a VW on an Autobahn at full throttle for hours on end at 30C ambient
And try using a 10W-30 HDEO in a triple road train (engine spec 15W-40) at 150 000kg GVM in a 50C ambient on a 5% gradient with a tail wind! Some engines do not survive this sort of thing very well at all!!!
Technologies move on and of course lubricants have too
However I know that there are limits and I hope readers here defer to those that know best - the engine manufacturer's recommendations - unless of course you know better...........!
Perhaps we all need to be careful of generalisations - and to respect one another as part of the BITOG community
I have been around the block enough to know what works and what doesn't. I would apply the title of Master to Doug because of his knowledge.If you really want to learn on what works and what doesn't talk to a succesful fleet manager/owner. Dr Hass is truly brilliant . The problem with his writing is not the info but to the readers understanding. I like to refer to it as I read the article I have no idea about the subject but I believe it.
Hi,
AEHaas - You said this;
"Do not be afraid of "thin" oils."
I'm sorry but generalisations can also be fraught with many problems
It is always very wise to know what the manufacturer has as a bottom line for the application! I for one would not defy the likes of CAT when they say certain applications require a minimum (stated) viscosity!
And I can assure you that using a 5W-40 synthetic lubricant with an HTHS vis of around 4 (minimum allowed is 3.7) in my engines that cost $50000 or so each would be the lowest viscosity spread I would be using - in my application! Arguing with an engine manufacturer about the use of an "out of spec" lubricant is useless and such use will kill Warranty claims believe me!
I have seen it many many times and in a wide variety of engine families
Likewise I know of various Porsche engines that will not survive very long on "thin" non specified lubricants
This Board's conributors have a lot of expertise. We should be mindful that not all on here are experts in the field of lubricants or engine technologies
I have always been a "thin" oil proponent - for over 50years! For instance I have used SAE20W-20 lubricants in BMC "A" series engines and VWs for almost as long - but try using such a lubricant in a BMC Mini! Or in a VW on an Autobahn at full throttle for hours on end at 30C ambient
And try using a 10W-30 HDEO in a triple road train (engine spec 15W-40) at 150 000kg GVM in a 50C ambient on a 5% gradient with a tail wind! Some engines do not survive this sort of thing very well at all!!!
Technologies move on and of course lubricants have too
However I know that there are limits and I hope readers here defer to those that know best - the engine manufacturer's recommendations - unless of course you know better...........!
Perhaps we all need to be careful of generalisations - and to respect one another as part of the BITOG community
I have been around the block enough to know what works and what doesn't. I would apply the title of Master to Doug because of his knowledge.If you really want to learn on what works and what doesn't talk to a succesful fleet manager/owner. Dr Hass is truly brilliant . The problem with his writing is not the info but to the readers understanding. I like to refer to it as I read the article I have no idea about the subject but I believe it.
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