Would you all like to see ISO 4548-12 Oil Filter Lab Testing Comparison, Efficiency & Capacity, Pressure vs Flow, Bubble Point, and Burst?

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

Not when the words are off track and not accurate, then proof needs to be present beside only words unless the words are changed/clarified to be accurate.

Point one out if it ever happens and be very specific- not a nebulous reference and make sure you have the accurate answer presented as well- otherwise its just another unqualified opinion.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Point one out if it ever happens and be very specific- not a nebulous reference and make sure you have the accurate answer presented as well- otherwise its just another unqualified opinion.

That goes both ways, and be prepared to back stuff up with more than just words.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

That goes both ways, and be prepared to back stuff up with more than just words.

I never fail to back up everything I say and that's what really bothers you. My words will be in enough detail and specificity to handle any question that may arise. Be ready for the same.

 

[bbhero]

Jesus, the amount of people instantly going into defense mode is quite saddening.

This is a hobbyist centered forum, your life will not continue nor end based on the actions of a forum member on here.

Provide feedback related to what OP was asking. If you have nothing to contribute relating to said topic, move on. If you don’t think they’re sincere, then don’t feed the troll.

OP is choosing to do these things at their own expense, if they don’t deliver, what’s it to you?

Stop crying over spilled milk when the carton hasn’t even been opened yet.

No one is a troll....

Whether you like it or not...

People had reservation and questions...

Then the op asked about what had happened prior...

Op got the answer...

A discussion happened with a typical back and forth...


Op and myself handled it and worked together to a good and reasonable answer.

Andrew handled the circumstance very well in my opinion.

I am leaning towards this member being legitimate and sincere.



Like I stated before...

I don't just trust hardly anyone....

I have a ton of reasons why... Personal and historical reasons.

You learn not to blindly trust people having gone through what I have dealt with....

I also know history...

Recent history demonstratres not instantly trusting people....

Duke lacrosse case.... Just one historical example...

Ferguson... Another example....

Jim Jones....

Jim Baker ptl another example....

And a multitude of other examples in history.

 

[Ascent Filtration Testing]

My comment was basically about testing filters without a bypass valve vs filters that have one. The reason being is to take out any risk of a leaking bypass valve from possibly skewing data of the filter's media performance. It was just a thought since the media efficiency is one of the main goals of the testing. He's only going to test one filter of each brand & model, so if he happens to get a defective filter it would skew the performance. Taking the bypass valve out of the equation might be something to consider in this "test program".

Lets see if we hit the hockey stick before the valve opens and leave them on, I believe we should see it on the particle counts if that happens. Note the pressure. If so the test is terminated. I normally disable the bypass on cartridge filter housings for 16889 tests. Unfortunately we can't do that for these.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I never fail to back up everything I say and that's what really bothers you. My words will be in enough detail and specificity to handle any question that may arise. Be ready for the same.

... you never back up anything, or refrute anyone else claims with back up material. So yeah, I never really did expect anything different except the usual.

 

[4WD]

Lets see if we hit the hockey stick before the valve opens and leave them on, I believe we should see it on the particle counts if that happens. Note the pressure. If so the test is terminated. I normally disable the bypass on cartridge filter housings for 16889 tests. Unfortunately we can't do that for these.

Filters for the 5.3L L83 (PF63E or competitors) have a PRV north of 20 psi … so well above many …

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

The content of my words is the back up material and all that's necessary for the points I establish.

you never back up anything, or refrute anyone else claims with back up material.

And don't forget, you have never shown otherwise.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Lets see if we hit the hockey stick before the valve opens and leave them on, I believe we should see it on the particle counts if that happens. Note the pressure. If so the test is terminated. I normally disable the bypass on cartridge filter housings for 16889 tests. Unfortunately we can't do that for these.

Another interesting thing we can maybe glean and verify from the data is that some filters become less efficient as they load up because depending on the holding ability of the media, already captured particles can slough off as the delta-p increases.

Have you seen any data similar to this efficiency "hockey stick" curve with your efficiency testing? This was R&D done by Mann+Hummel/Purolator.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The content of my words is the back up material and all that's necessary for the points I establish.

And don't forget, you have never shown otherwise.

Sure I have ... you just don't believe it, and can't ever prove the info I do show isn't true. Still waiting for anyone to prove with valid data that cleaner oil doesn't result in less wear. You've made claims that can't be proven by you or anyone else.

Anyway ... we both know this will go nowhere, so just let it go and maybe back stuff up once and awhile with more than words like real SMEs do.

 

[Ascent Filtration Testing]

Filters for the 5.3L L83 (PF63E or competitors) have a PRV north of 20 psi … so well above many …

Someone made a good point about using the latest model Chevy Truck 6.0L instead of the 5.3L. Probably a good idea.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

Another interesting thing we can maybe glean and verify from the data is that some filters become less efficient as they load up because depending on the holding ability of the media, already captured particles can slough off as the delta-p increases.

I'll answer that for you because its a very common occurrence in many types of media.

Depending on variables such as particle load, pressure, viscosity of the medium and media properties- loaded filters often get loaded to the point of forced pass through.

Depending on the TDS and solids hardness/geometry as well as the rating, this pass through can stretch pores/cavities as well as wear individual fibers within the media changing the beta.

This is most commonly seen in cake and belt filtration where the cake proper "pushes' itself through thus opening up the media.

Sloughing generally occurs when the weight of a given particulate cake exceeds the forces against it.

 

[Ascent Filtration Testing]

Another interesting thing we can maybe glean and verify from the data is that some filters become less efficient as they load up because depending on the holding ability of the media, already captured particles can slough off as the delta-p increases.

Have you seen any data similar to this efficiency "hockey stick" curve with your efficiency testing? This was R&D done by Mann+Hummel/Purolator.

View attachment 36028

I have seen rises, but I have also seen the opposite where it drops (even as delta P increases rapidly) after it hits the inflection point. It can happen very very fast and weird things happen. The filter is totally unstable at that point. Filters should be designed in the flat region with a safety factor.
Different filter behave differently. As to why I don't really know specifically why.
Nice graph and interesting peaks and valleys for the 15um and 20um

 

[bbhero]

I have seen rises, but I have also seen the opposite where it drops (even as delta P increases rapidly) after it hits the inflection point. It can happen very very fast and weird things happen. The filter is totally unstable at that point. Filters should be designed in the flat region with a safety factor.
Different filter behave differently. As to why I don't really know specifically why.
Nice graph and interesting peaks and valleys for the 15um and 20um

Just a heads up...

I am going to call you tomorrow.

We will have a good time and a good conversation.

 

[ZeeOSix]

A_C_E ... I know why it happens, and thanks for details - I agree. Funny thing is many here don't believe that phenomenon exists, and still believe that all filters only get more efficienct as they load up. Personally, I'm not for running oil filters for some crazy amount of miles for the fact that filters can lose efficiency with loading. Running oil filters longer than not on vehicles with super clean engine guts isn't so risky, but on dirty engines people shouldn't run filters overly long.

 

[Ascent Filtration Testing]

Just a heads up...

I am going to call you tomorrow.

We will have a good time and a good conversation.

Excellent, what time and time zone? I will make sure I am free.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

I agree. Funny thing is many here don't believe that phenomenon exists, and still believe that all filters only get more efficienct as they load up.

That's only because they have not personally examined them with a SEM and documented the damage and measured it on a comparator.

There is truth under Darcy as cake builds and media blinds that a filter CAN ( not a guaranteed will) become more efficient. The answer as to which way it will go will depend on particle size and geometry ( and hardness which will determine how the particles will mechanically lock) creating capillaries combined with fluid properties. Then density takes over. ( that's discounting any fluid tackiness which adds another layer of equations)

That is a non linear outcome of filtration with tons of variables- any one of which can make it more efficient, blow through or a gradient of both.

 

[bbhero]

Excellent, what time and time zone? I will make sure I am free.

Say around 2 to 3 pm. I am in the eastern Va area.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I have seen rises, but I have also seen the opposite where it drops (even as delta P increases rapidly) after it hits the inflection point. It can happen very very fast and weird things happen. The filter is totally unstable at that point. Filters should be designed in the flat region with a safety factor.

Some observations. Even in the graph I posted, that particular filter was losing efficiency from the start. As you know, ISO 4548-12 end efficiency is the average of the test start to finish efficiency. So using the example graph, that particular filter would have an overall ISO efficiency of ~75% @ 20u if using the end points (before near total clogging and sudden delta-p rise), or ~85% @ 20u if using the first half of the data.

Filters that rate high in the ISO test shouldn't (by the efficiency definition equation in ISO 4548-12) show much efficiency change as the delta-p increases, as they couldn't rate high if they did lose significant efficiency over the test window - one reason I like filters with high ISO efficiency ratings. Filters that rate low in efficiency may have more decrease in efficiency as the media loads up and delta-p increases, on top of just the media not being as efficient in the first place.

 

[Ascent Filtration Testing]

Even in the graph I posted, that particular filter was losing efficiency from the start. As you know, ISO 4548-12 end efficiency is the average of the test start to finish efficiency. So using the example graph, that particular filter would have an ovall ISO efficiency of ~75% @ 20u if using the end points (before near total clogging and sudden delta-p rise), or ~85% @ 20u if using the first half of the data.

Filters that rate high in the ISO test shouldn't (by the efficiency definition equation in ISO 4548-12) show much efficiency change as the delta-p increases, as they couldn't rate high if they did lose significant efficiency over the test window. Filters that rate low in efficiency may have more decrease in efficiency as the media loads up and delta-p increases, on top of just the media not being as efficient in the first place.

Most manufacturers will choose a terminal Delta P that is known that will just hit the Delta P inflection point prior to instability. In the case of R and D that Delta P may not be known, thus increasing the window size, lowering or raising the overall efficiency. This unstable section should never be included in reports for any kind of marketing, as it would be misleading.
I just realized this is an R and D graph, which makes sense, and that is what we want to see in R and D data.
ZeeOsix I really like your passion for filters! You even read the ISO 4548 standard I love it!