Audi OEM vs Fram Titanium Cartridge Filter

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I'm quite interested in anything Mann HU6013z since my GTI EA888 3G uses the same,
but I'm suprised to see the Fram has more pleats. I remember reading about Mann filters
having more pleats than others (don't remember which) several times in the past, but that
could have been air filters mainly.




While I'd love to see some data I'm convinced Mann filters perform well. VW/Audi would
have chosen a different supplier otherwise. I feel comfortable with a Mann whether they
provide data or not.

Btw, do Mann make it with white filter media now? I'd bet it used to be yellowish. This is
a Mann provided image and it's supposed to be a HU6013z:

022.jpg



Some years ago I had a Mann HU6013z in my hands, but I can't remember for sure if it's been white or yellow.
Since then I had oil changes on this car done at the dealer.
.
Just following up on this. I ordered an HU 6013z and received the obsolete 6002z instead. The older filter is definitely yellow. Im returning for the correct 6013z.
 

OldCowboy

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I disagree with your premise.
The point of statistics falls on manufactures to more or less guarantee no (0.001%) failures.
The fact that a customer found a failure and posted it on the internet is very indicative of an issue with a product.
Sorry, but you need to take a course in statistics. A single data point has zero degrees of freedom and is thus worthless from a statistical viewpoint.
 
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Sorry, but you need to take a course in statistics. A single data point has zero degrees of freedom and is thus worthless from a statistical viewpoint.
I actually have. Many.
Just so I understand things, hypothetically...You find a roach in your cornflakes. You go right back to buying cornflakes because that one incident wasn't statistically significant?
Its not on the end consumer to run statistical analysis on any failure. Because as you point out it would be difficult/impossible to collect a statistically significant data set as a consumer. N=1 is enough for any consumer to make a decision. That was my point.
 
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After seeing Ascent Filtration's study of oil filters (https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...essure-vs-flow-bubble-point-and-burst.334882/) I thought I'd see if there was a visible difference between the Fram Ultra and the OEM oil filter for my Audi A4. The OEM version is a rebranded Mann HU 6013 Z and the Fram Ultra is sold by Advance Auto Parts as the Fram Titanium. Here's a picture of the two side by side:
View attachment 65936
Both filters have synthetic media and are designed to be used with synthetic oil. The pleats in the Fram filter are backed with a metal screen. Mann says nothing about how their pleats are backed.

The biggest difference I see between the two is that the Fram filter has many more pleats than the Mann filter. From Ascent's study, we can presume that the Fram is 99%+ efficient at 15 microns. Mann provides no information as to the efficiency of their filter.

I currently have a Mann filter in my Audi and am about 1500 miles from the next OC. I'll pull a sample for UOA when I change the oil and use the Fram filter for the next OCI, after which I'll also run a UOA on that oil.

Does your Mann 6013z have the pleat/crimp with an almost Velcro type feel? I.E. it’s quite different than the other pleats? I’m trying to figure out if mine is defective or not
 

OldCowboy

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Does your Mann 6013z have the pleat/crimp with an almost Velcro type feel? I.E. it’s quite different than the other pleats? I’m trying to figure out if mine is defective or not
Yes. That's where the ends of the media are glued together.
 
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We have 3 VAG vehicles:
2014 Jetta 1.8T 97K
2017 A3 2.GO T, 49K
2017 Audi Q5 3.0 SC 43K
I have always run Mann Filters (made in Germany or Austria), on each one for 5-7K miles: filters for the 1.8T & 2.GO are the same. Just for the heck of it, I used a Fram Ultra on the 1.8T for the last oil change. After removing the Mann, and inserting/seating the FU, I could not believe how flimsy/twisty the general construction of the FU felt. I was thinking this change is going to be a big mistake --> we'll see in another 2K miles.
FWIW regarding Mann filters, I had a Blackstone UOA with particle count performed for the 3.0: the number of particles stop at 40 microns. I know BS particle counts have been criticized before, but I didn't tell them what filter I was using, so they can't be too far off IMO. Thoughts?
 

ZeeOSix

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FWIW regarding Mann filters, I had a Blackstone UOA with particle count performed for the 3.0: the number of particles stop at 40 microns. I know BS particle counts have been criticized before, but I didn't tell them what filter I was using, so they can't be too far off IMO. Thoughts?

Best to post up the ISO particle count data for a look.
 

OldCowboy

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We have 3 VAG vehicles:
2014 Jetta 1.8T 97K
2017 A3 2.GO T, 49K
2017 Audi Q5 3.0 SC 43K
I have always run Mann Filters (made in Germany or Austria), on each one for 5-7K miles: filters for the 1.8T & 2.GO are the same. Just for the heck of it, I used a Fram Ultra on the 1.8T for the last oil change. After removing the Mann, and inserting/seating the FU, I could not believe how flimsy/twisty the general construction of the FU felt. I was thinking this change is going to be a big mistake --> we'll see in another 2K miles.
FWIW regarding Mann filters, I had a Blackstone UOA with particle count performed for the 3.0: the number of particles stop at 40 microns. I know BS particle counts have been criticized before, but I didn't tell them what filter I was using, so they can't be too far off IMO. Thoughts?
The problem with oil filter ratings is that even 40 microns is smaller than the clearance on the main bearings and rod bearings. I don't have any idea how that effects wear. With normal bearing clearance being about 60 microns, will a 40 micron particle shoot through that clearance without touching the bearing? Will a 20 micron particle?
 

ZeeOSix

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The problem with oil filter ratings is that even 40 microns is smaller than the clearance on the main bearings and rod bearings. I don't have any idea how that effects wear. With normal bearing clearance being about 60 microns, will a 40 micron particle shoot through that clearance without touching the bearing? Will a 20 micron particle?
Pretty much every engine wear study says the particles less than 20μ do the majority of the wear.

Keep in mind that the MOFT in a running journal bearing can be quite a bit less than It's non-running nominal clearance. 0.001 inch is 25.4 microns. The MOFT could be as low as 5~10 microns while running depending on a bunch of factors. If the bearing clearance was say 60μ (0.0024") the running MOFT could certainty be at 20μ most of the time. That's why the engine wear studies say the particles 20μ and smaller do the most wear. Any particle that can go through the clearance can potentially cause wear.
 
Last edited:
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Z-Attached report from BS, first UOA on the car. I could hear the chain tensioner rattle at startup and sure enough, it had thinned out. Years ago when the kids were in college, the car made numerous trips to VA, but for almost all of its life, the longest trip my wife takes it on is about 7 miles. Typically, 5 days per week it is 3 miles to work and 3 miles back. What a shame, BTW. Oil was ELF 5-40 and OF Was MANN Made in Germany. I changed the oil and filter with some Castrol 10-40 A3/B4 I had in the stash, and another MANN/Germany to hold it over until the upcoming October oil change. Oil was ELF 5-40 and OF Was MANN Made in Germany.
Included are the requested particle counts. Feedback welcomed.

STEVE: The universal average interval is about 6,100 miles.
This oil was run almost as long, and wear metals compare really well to averages. However, there's some
fuel in this oil. The viscosity tested like a 5W/30, so it may have been thinned down by fuel. Maybe the fuel
is just from all the short trips; you might take the car out for a longer drive every now and again to see if that
helps. The TBN was good at 2.9, and the particle count came in at 24/23/17. Change the oil to flush out the
fuel, though, and follow up in about 5,000 miles.
MI/HR on Oil5,607UNIVERSAL
AVERAGES
MI/HR on Unit41,913UNIT /
Sample Date7/19/2021LOCATION
AVERAGES
Make Up Oil Added0 qts
ALUMINUM555
CHROMIUM111
IRON151520
COPPER333
LEAD000
TIN111
MOLYBDENUM282835
NICKEL000
MANGANESE332
SILVER000
TITANIUM15152
POTASSIUM003
BORON161657
SILICON7710
SODIUM559
CALCIUM155015502340
MAGNESIUM57357373
PHOSPHORUS835835820
ZINC956956937
BARIUM000
Values
Should Be*
SUS Viscosity @ 210°F59.965-78ISO CODE (2)23/17
cSt Viscosity @ 100°C10.1811.6-15.3NAS 1638 Class12
Flashpoint in °F345>385ISO CODE (3)24/23/17
Fuel %2.0<2.0SAE AS4059 cpc12
Antifreeze %0.00.04 Micron152919.1
Water %0.00.06 Micron70143.7
Insolubles %0.3<0.614 Micron1011.1
TBN2.9>1.021 Micron299.7
TAN38 Micron30
ISO Code24/23/1770 Micron1.4
 
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Z-you were interested in particle counts: here's one from my Honda with Fram TG 7317
ISO CODE (2)21/17
cSt Viscosity @ 100°C8.409.7-11.99.8710.209.04NAS 1638 Class12
Flashpoint in °F390>375380390400ISO CODE (3)23/21/17
Fuel %<0.5<2.0<0.5<0.5<0.5SAE AS4059 cpc12
Antifreeze %0.00.00.00.00.04 Micron41894.3
Water %0.0<0.10.00.00.06 Micron13689.7
Insolubles %0.3<0.60.30.40.214 Micron752.6
TBN2.72.33.321 Micron157.6
TAN6.038 Micron12
ISO Code23/21/1715/14/1270 Micron2.9
 
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Found another particle count from same 2.4 Honda motor from 2014. This was using a Fram Ultra7317 7,032 miles into a 15K mile oil change.
I forgot to add the previous particle count example from the Honda was about 2K after an oil pan replacement, hence the huge difference.



SUS Viscosity @ 210°F55.956-6356.255.654.1ISO CODE (2)15/12
cSt Viscosity @ 100°C9.049.1-11.39.118.948.51NAS 1638 Class7
Flashpoint in °F400>385360365375ISO CODE (3)15/14/12
Fuel %<0.5<2.0TRTR<0.5>= 2 Micron555
Antifreeze %0.00.00.00.00.0>= 5 Micron205
Water %0.0<0.10.00.00.0>= 10 Micron56
Insolubles %0.2<0.60.30.30.3>= 15 Micron22
TBN3.3>1.03.15.0>= 25 Micron5
TAN6.0>= 50 Micron0
ISO Code15/14/12>= 100 Micron0
 

ZeeOSix

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@steve20 ... are all 3 particle counts above on the same car? I see the last two are. The Ultra PC is about the best PC I've seen posted on BITOG.
 
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