Would you all like to see ISO 4548-12 Oil Filter Lab Testing Comparison, Efficiency & Capacity, Pressure vs Flow, Bubble Point, and Burst?

[ZeeOSix]

Most manufacturers will choose a terminal Delta P that is known that will just hit the Delta P inflection point prior to instability. In the case of R and D that Delta P may not be known, thus increasing the window size, lowering or raising the overall efficiency. This unstable section should never be included in reports for any kind of marketing, as it would be misleading.

How close to the bypass valve setting do most manufactures specify to define the "final net termination" delta-p where testing stops?

I just realized this is an R and D graph, which makes sense, and that is what we want to see in R and D data.
ZeeOsix I really like your passion for filters! You even read the ISO 4548 standard I love it!

The info didn't say, but my guess is that R&D data graph by Mann+Hummel was on a filter without a bypass valve. I'd expect the bypass valve on most filters to open before the intense delta-p upturn point at the end of that graph. Although, some of the filters these days have pretty high bypass valve settings (well over 20 PSI).

 

[Ascent Filtration Testing]

Any customer testimonials you can share? Also, where are the labs located?

Thanks,

Greater Detroit Metro Area. I can not share any customer info. You are my new customer, and after I run these tests, I hope you share.

 

[Ascent Filtration Testing]

Last thing like you speak of would have been a PF46 … why test filters from that era if fewer and fewer folks purchased them or exceed average age on the road? Already made the transition from those to PF48 to PF63E now …

Another thing of interest is starting in 2014 … the way that new oil pump kicks in you hit high pressure based on engine “demand” … so you see that sharp pressure surge right when the downshift occurs and well before engine RPM rises.

Reading the TS/OP … it’s OEM and several aftermarket filters to test for Chevy trucks. I’d suggest 2014 to date.
But, I’ll just move on on here and let others comment …

You are right and I will test to the newer 2014 to date. Please tell me your top 5 choices. I picked this 2012 because it was my truck.

 

[ZeeOSix]

ISO 4548-12 indicates to keep the oil temperature as needed to achieve the test oil viscosity at 15 +/- 1 cSt (mm^2/s) during the test. The minimum test oil viscosity spec is also listed as 13.2 cSt at 40C (KV40). @Ascent Filtration Testing ... how do you guys verify the viscosity is within spec?

Just FYI ... 13.2 cSt is basically the lower end of the viscosity range of 40 weight motor oil at 200 F, and 15 cSt is basically the upper middle of the viscosity range of 40 weight motor oil at 200 F. So any flow vs delta-p curves will essentially be simulating xW-40 motor oil at 200 F. If the filter was used on an engine with thinner oil, then the delta-p at any given flow rate will be a bit lower.

 

[Ascent Filtration Testing]

Using one of my kinematic Viscometers that is calibrated with out target in it's range, and put in a constant temp bath.

 

[4WD]

You are right and I will test to the newer 2014 to date. Please tell me your top 5 choices. I picked this 2012 because it was my truck.

AC Delco PF63E is OEM
Fram XG10575 is considered a value added filter for slightly more
Wix WL10255
Wix WL10255XP (extended run)
Baldwin B7449 (fleet use filter)

Notes:
1.) Above are filters where I could verify the +20 psi PRV for the newer GM oil pump.
2.) Mobil M1-212A is in this group but could not find PRV psi, anyone ?
3.) Royal Purple 20-500 has a 20 psi PRV and is very well made … but $15 ?
4.) Wix filters should cover for popular Napa equivalent filters
5.) Have used all of these on 2010/2017/2018 GM’s, a Ford F-150 and an Explorer. Ram owners please speak
up if you have used some of these as a longer oil filter ?

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

I have also seen the opposite where it drops (even as delta P increases rapidly) after it hits the inflection point. It can happen very very fast and weird things happen. The filter is totally unstable at that point. Filters should be designed in the flat region with a safety factor.
Different filter behave differently. As to why I don't really know specifically why.

Are you assuming a constant laminar flow of equal velocity over the entire surface of the filter area with no accounting for density changes as back pressure increases and the venturi effect increases? That can create a transition zone with turbulent flow which "can" have erratic effects on a given media or geometric design depending on the flow path.

 

[DuckRyder]

I agree, the latest and greatest filters. Yes, I prefer your bluntness sir, not as much data out there as we would like.

LOL, I wasn't even trying to be blunt... sometimes i just call 'em like I see 'em though...

So you mentioned in a later reply that you are the owner and you are going to "pay" for this. I realize there must be a cost of ownership associated with the equipment and such as well as the test dust, but if you're willing, I would be agreeable to deferring some of the cost at least by suppling some OEM filters to test.

 

[Blagoje]

Wix WL10255
Wix WL10255XP (extended run)

@Ascent Filtration Testing I would like to second the inclusion of a standard WIX or clone Napa Gold oil filter in the test if I could add one filter to my original list of four. The standard Wix/Napa Gold is very popular, performs very well, and is very distinct from its Wix XP/Napa Platinum full synthetic counterpart.

Also instead of a Royal Purple oil filter I would rather see the similar Amsoil brand oil filter tested due to certain claims they have made in recent times about improvements to their design.

Fram Ultra
Wix/Napa Gold
Wix XP/Napa Platinum
Amsoil
Purolator Boss

 

[4WD]

@Ascent Filtration Testing I would like to second the inclusion of a standard WIX or clone Napa Gold oil filter in the test if I could add one filter to my original list of four. The standard Wix/Napa Gold is very popular, performs very well, and is very distinct from its Wix XP/Napa Platinum full synthetic counterpart.

Also instead of a Royal Purple oil filter I would rather see the similar Amsoil brand oil filter tested due to certain claims they have made in recent times about improvements to their design.

Fram Ultra
Wix/Napa Gold
Wix XP/Napa Platinum
Amsoil
Purolator Boss

Ah, was thinking RP and Amsoil were the same …
… do you know the PRV pressure setting on the equivalent/upgraded Amsoil ?

 

[Ascent Filtration Testing]

Are you assuming a constant laminar flow of equal velocity over the entire surface of the filter area with no accounting for density changes as back pressure increases and the venturi effect increases? That can create a transition zone with turbulent flow which "can" have erratic effects on a given media or geometric design depending on the flow path.

I do enjoy my fluid dynamics, and I bet we will have a great conversation. In the scope of what we do at AFT it is purely academic to answer these types of questions. We figure out what it does, if or when it does it. We leave it up to the manufacturers filter engineers to figure out how and why.

 

[Ascent Filtration Testing]

Ah, was thinking RP and Amsoil were the same …
… do you know the PRV pressure setting on the equivalent/upgraded Amsoil ?

I do not.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

We leave it up to the manufacturers filter engineers to figure out how and why.

Yep, welcome to my world now and you forgot the part of how to mitigate it.

 

[Ascent Filtration Testing]

Yep, welcome to my world now and you forgot the part of how to mitigate it.

We can't just let the air guys have all the glory and fun

 

[BeerCan]

I for one appreciate your offer and willingness to do this. As a lay person I don't understand all of the different principles and science that goes into testing like this. I do geek out on reading the test results and processes that go into doing stuff like this but at the end of the day I try and see it for what it is.

I guess what I am saying is that I applaud you for stepping into this minefield that can be bitog and at least sticking with it for 8 pages now. I hope you decide to move forward with this but I hope you prepare for the 9000 posts you will get on how you did it wrong. If you want help to defray costs I would be willing to send you a filter for testing. Just PM me your address and the filter you want.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

We can't just let the air guys have all the glory and fun

I get it- fluid and air. I get tasked with solving the problems now and that is where I have to really design some customized testing and analysis techniques.

The good news is I do very little now in "spin on" filtration ( but have done my share) and I will farm all of it I get to you in the future.

That brings up another point (I do get asked for this occasionally but really no longer have time except for the occasional 1 off)- do you do forensic filter analysis?

 

[Ascent Filtration Testing]

I for one appreciate your offer and willingness to do this. As a lay person I don't understand all of the different principles and science that goes into testing like this. I do geek out on reading the test results and processes that go into doing stuff like this but at the end of the day I try and see it for what it is.

I guess what I am saying is that I applaud you for stepping into this minefield that can be bitog and at least sticking with it for 8 pages now. I hope you decide to move forward with this but I hope you prepare for the 9000 posts you will get on how you did it wrong. If you want help to defray costs I would be willing to send you a filter for testing. Just PM me your address and the filter you want.

I really appreciate the kind words. Honestly there is usually a team of engineers each an expert in a different discipline that develop and release filter products. These manufacturers go through a lot of time, thought, and money to get it right.
I am a testing engineer by trade and have tested in some capacity all of my adult life. When I attend meetings with my associates I always learn something new. On this forum I am learning from all of you guys.
I will cover the cost on this one, and I appreciate the offer.
I will do this project for all of you, and I hope that after I do that you all share with everyone you guys know in the filter industry that Ascent Filtration Testing did this for you.

I get it- fluid and air. I get tasked with solving the problems now and that is where I have to really design some customized testing and analysis techniques.

The good news is I do very little now in "spin on" filtration ( but have done my share) and I will farm all of it I get to you in the future.

That brings up another point (I do get asked for this occasionally but really no longer have time except for the occasional 1 off)- do you do forensic filter analysis?

I can test remaining capacity and or efficiency on a used filter, recheck for differences in P vs Q from new to used. Basically performance differences from new to used.

 

[Ascent Filtration Testing]

I really appreciate the kind words. Honestly there is usually a team of engineers each an expert in a different discipline that develop and release filter products. These manufacturers go through a lot of time, thought, and money to get it right.
I am a testing engineer by trade and have tested in some capacity all of my adult life. When I attend meetings with my associates I always learn something new. On this forum I am learning from all of you guys.
I will cover the cost on this one, and I appreciate the offer.
I will do this project for all of you, and I hope that after I do that you all share with everyone you guys know in the filter industry that Ascent Filtration Testing did this for you.

I can test remaining capacity and or efficiency on a used filter, recheck for differences in P vs Q from new to used. Basically performance differences from new to used.

If you want to bounce around any ideas for custom testing give me a ring anytime.

I really appreciate the kind words. Honestly there is usually a team of engineers each an expert in a different discipline that develop and release filter products. These manufacturers go through a lot of time, thought, and money to get it right.
I am a testing engineer by trade and have tested in some capacity all of my adult life. When I attend meetings with my associates I always learn something new. On this forum I am learning from all of you guys.
I will cover the cost on this one, and I appreciate the offer.
I will do this project for all of you, and I hope that after I do that you all share with everyone you guys know in the filter industry that Ascent Filtration Testing did this for you.

I can test remaining capacity and or efficiency on a used filter, recheck for differences in P vs Q from new to used. Basically performance differences from new to used.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

I hope that after I do that you all share with everyone you guys know in the filter industry that Ascent Filtration Testing did this for you.

I have every intention of doing just that as situations arise where your services are applicable but before I put my stamp on it, I have to be reasonably comfortable with the decision.

I can test remaining capacity and or efficiency on a used filter, recheck for differences in P vs Q from new to used. Basically performance differences from new to used.

Let me give you a scenario ( best way to describe it) and see how far you can go with it. I never get called on easy stuff.

I have a client with an unacceptable amount of contamination ( all over the place) on a process gearbox with a cooler/pump/filter for online filtration as the unit runs. This is showing up as mechanical wear on gears and defects in frequencies so its not just "stuff".

I need to come up with a better filter media because this is process contamination so ingress control isn't a really viable option.

So I time a few cans ( say 30 day runs) and i want an in depth analysis of the filter& media with particle capture, retention, condition/penetration of the media, estimate on bypass loss ( repumping stuff back into my box).

I would also like to know if there is any chemical or mechanical damage to the media changing the beta over the life of the filter as this is a metal facility and i strongly suspect this may be happening.

I also want a full captured particle analysis with count, distribution and geometry ( and ferrous/ non ferrous count)

I want a recommendation on filter set up ( leave that open ended so any option will be considered) to get acceptable cleanliness for say a 90 day window.

What on my list an you do to help me meet my clients requirement? ( and if you would do custom testing- what kind and how)

That one just happens to be fresh on my mind

 

[Blagoje]

Ah, was thinking RP and Amsoil were the same …
… do you know the PRV pressure setting on the equivalent/upgraded Amsoil ?

https://amsoilcontent.com/ams/graphs/eao/filterspecs.pdf