By reading topics on AutoRX and other full syn. oil, it seems to me that the ester in those Group 4+5 engine oil / AutoRX can provide much better cleaning effect compared to base oil from other group. Is it correct and is there any reason that is responsible for that?
Why ester based oil can provide better cleaning effect?
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Esters are very mild, organic solvents ...that's why several types are used in the very effective "AutoRX" product, which I use and wholly endorse.
Their natural solvency also allows esters to be used as carrier oils for additive packages and allows ester based, two stroke oils to be miscible in gasoline.
Esters in their pure form do have problems with hydrolytic stability and compatibility with elastomeric seals. However, these can be overcome by combining them with PAO's, which are much more similar to petroleum oils in terms of their chemical properties. The idea is to get the best overall balance of physical/chemical properties in the basestock blend.
Tooslick
www.lubedealer.com/Dixie_Synthetics
Their natural solvency also allows esters to be used as carrier oils for additive packages and allows ester based, two stroke oils to be miscible in gasoline.
Esters in their pure form do have problems with hydrolytic stability and compatibility with elastomeric seals. However, these can be overcome by combining them with PAO's, which are much more similar to petroleum oils in terms of their chemical properties. The idea is to get the best overall balance of physical/chemical properties in the basestock blend.
Tooslick
www.lubedealer.com/Dixie_Synthetics
A little off the topic, but you mentioned problems with esthers in their pure form with elastomeric seals. I just put in some Amsoil 5-w30, now because of its PAO content, their should be no problem with these seals?
Also, synthetic ATF, like Amsoil or redline D$, would they have any issues with tranny seals?
Also, synthetic ATF, like Amsoil or redline D$, would they have any issues with tranny seals?
Amsoil engine oils have excellent seal compatibility, even when used in older, high mileage engines. I have had very few complains about leakage from my customers. I'd estimate that only 3%-5% of older cars leak enough w/ Amsoil to make it worthwhile to replace some seals and gaskets ....
Synthetic lubes are formulated to match the seal swell characteristics of petroleum oils. These typically provide a controlled amount of seal swell. Elastomeric seals are dimensioned/designed with the idea that they will swell slightly and predictably when exposed to hydrocarbon lubricants ....
Designing an engine/transmission/diff that works well and doesn't leak for 10-15 years is extremely complicated. Most people simply have no idea how tough this is to do ....
Tooslick
Synthetic lubes are formulated to match the seal swell characteristics of petroleum oils. These typically provide a controlled amount of seal swell. Elastomeric seals are dimensioned/designed with the idea that they will swell slightly and predictably when exposed to hydrocarbon lubricants ....
Designing an engine/transmission/diff that works well and doesn't leak for 10-15 years is extremely complicated. Most people simply have no idea how tough this is to do ....
Tooslick
Umm, they once were when they were hydrocarbons, but once they are converted chemically(not refined), they become paos.
There are alot of chemicals that are made from dino crude, PAO's are just one of many, Saran wrap, shopping bags, olefin carpet, most plastics. The idea that synthetic oils don't come out of the ground is BS. Even the the latest research on fuel cells is using Hydrogen extracted from natural gas. If you search far enough back you will find that jello is made from cow bones. Bottom line is while synthetic oil (PAO based) is a better product, don't think you're saving the earth by using it. What I haven't been able to find is what happens to the left over stuff after the PAO is extracted from the ethylene.
[ December 03, 2003, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Bob Woods ]
There are alot of chemicals that are made from dino crude, PAO's are just one of many, Saran wrap, shopping bags, olefin carpet, most plastics. The idea that synthetic oils don't come out of the ground is BS. Even the the latest research on fuel cells is using Hydrogen extracted from natural gas. If you search far enough back you will find that jello is made from cow bones. Bottom line is while synthetic oil (PAO based) is a better product, don't think you're saving the earth by using it. What I haven't been able to find is what happens to the left over stuff after the PAO is extracted from the ethylene.
[ December 03, 2003, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Bob Woods ]
PAO's are still hydrocarbons
polyalphaolefin
1. n. [Drilling Fluids] ID: 2211
One of the synthetic hydrocarbon liquids manufactured from the monomer ethylene, H2C=CH2. Polyalphaolefins have a complex branched structure with an olefin bond in the alpha position of one of the branches. Hydrogenated polyalphaolefins have olefin-carbons saturated with hydrogen, which lends excellent thermal stability to the molecule. Synthetic-base fluids (similar to oil muds) are made with the various types of synthetic liquids because the cuttings can be discharged in offshore waters, whereas discharge of cuttings coated with refined oils would be disallowed.
http://www.glossary.oilfield.slb.com/Display.cfm?Term=polyalphaolefin
polyalphaolefin
1. n. [Drilling Fluids] ID: 2211
One of the synthetic hydrocarbon liquids manufactured from the monomer ethylene, H2C=CH2. Polyalphaolefins have a complex branched structure with an olefin bond in the alpha position of one of the branches. Hydrogenated polyalphaolefins have olefin-carbons saturated with hydrogen, which lends excellent thermal stability to the molecule. Synthetic-base fluids (similar to oil muds) are made with the various types of synthetic liquids because the cuttings can be discharged in offshore waters, whereas discharge of cuttings coated with refined oils would be disallowed.
http://www.glossary.oilfield.slb.com/Display.cfm?Term=polyalphaolefin
However, these can be overcome by combining them with PAO's, which are much more similar to petroleum oils in terms of their chemical properties.
PAO's are petroleum products!!!!
PAO's are petroleum products!!!!
The main reason for this good solvency/cleaning ability compared to other lubes is that esters have an oxygen atom jutting out above the plane as part of their functional group.
that Oxygen introduces some localizd charge which makes the molecule slightly polar on one part.
This polarity assists with dissolving contaminants , especially those that are themselves slightyl polar.
As for the non polar contaminats, the non polar parts of the lube can take care of those.
Fred....
that Oxygen introduces some localizd charge which makes the molecule slightly polar on one part.
This polarity assists with dissolving contaminants , especially those that are themselves slightyl polar.
As for the non polar contaminats, the non polar parts of the lube can take care of those.
Fred....
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