Could be, will check next time I have the chance.
why different oil for U.S. and Europe?
- Thread starter jocktheglide
- Start date
- Status
Cafe FAQ from the NHTSA gov site:
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/overview.htm
What are CAFE credits?
Manufacturers can earn CAFE “credits” to offset deficiencies in their CAFE performances. Specifically, when the average fuel economy of either the passenger car or light truck fleet for a particular model year exceeds the established standard, the manufacturer earns credits. The amount of credit a manufacturer earns is determined by multiplying the tenths of a mile per gallon that the manufacturer exceeded the CAFE standard in that model year by the amount of vehicles they manufactured in that model year. These credits can be applied to any three consecutive model years immediately prior to or subsequent to the model year in which the credits are earned. The credits earned and applied to the model years prior to the model year for which the credits are earned are termed “carry back” credits, while those applied to model years subsequent to the model year in which the credits are earned are known as “carry forward” credits. Failure to exercise carry forward credits within the three years immediately following the year in which they are earned will result in the forfeiture of those credits. Credits cannot be passed between manufacturers or between fleets, e.g., from domestic passenger cars to light trucks.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/overview.htm
What are CAFE credits?
Manufacturers can earn CAFE “credits” to offset deficiencies in their CAFE performances. Specifically, when the average fuel economy of either the passenger car or light truck fleet for a particular model year exceeds the established standard, the manufacturer earns credits. The amount of credit a manufacturer earns is determined by multiplying the tenths of a mile per gallon that the manufacturer exceeded the CAFE standard in that model year by the amount of vehicles they manufactured in that model year. These credits can be applied to any three consecutive model years immediately prior to or subsequent to the model year in which the credits are earned. The credits earned and applied to the model years prior to the model year for which the credits are earned are termed “carry back” credits, while those applied to model years subsequent to the model year in which the credits are earned are known as “carry forward” credits. Failure to exercise carry forward credits within the three years immediately following the year in which they are earned will result in the forfeiture of those credits. Credits cannot be passed between manufacturers or between fleets, e.g., from domestic passenger cars to light trucks.
Originally Posted By: Mitch Alsup
One reason is that people in Europe have access to public roads that allow them to drive as fast as the car will go (traffic permitting) with Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches going 180+, BMW and Mercs going 155. We have no such counterparts here excepting race tracks.
Last time I checked, Europe was more than Germany. All other countries in Europe have maximum speed limit of 130 km/h or less. On the Autobahn in Germany, traffic is so dense at daytime that there is little chance of pushing your car to it's limits...
One reason is that people in Europe have access to public roads that allow them to drive as fast as the car will go (traffic permitting) with Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches going 180+, BMW and Mercs going 155. We have no such counterparts here excepting race tracks.
Last time I checked, Europe was more than Germany. All other countries in Europe have maximum speed limit of 130 km/h or less. On the Autobahn in Germany, traffic is so dense at daytime that there is little chance of pushing your car to it's limits...
While the minor millage gains of thinner have been documented, encreased wear hasn't been. There are people here that have no idea what the dealer or iffy lube is putting in or at most makes sure it follows the owners' manual. Those people in Europe ride the train. That leaves the manufacturers needing to please the thicker is better crowd.
Sure, bouncing off the redline, European style, is hard on the engine. But the US highways have plenty of long climbs in harsh climate that must be at least as stressful. I see people fleeing Phoenix go flying N. on I-17 at 80MPH in 110 degree heat, towing boats, trailers, etc. The cars and trucks are close to WFO for well over half an hour - plenty of time to heat saturate the engine and oil. There's also a big grade between Barstow and Las Vegas that must stress the heck out of a car's oil. Millions blast up the LA area passes daily, etc.
I've always been leery about thin oil. I'd MUCH rather be a little too far to the right on the Stribeck curve (slight increase in viscous drag) than the left (collapse of oil film!) Still, I've got to admit that the xW-20 craze probably isn't a mechanical kiss of death.
I don't know if BMW and other typical 'thick oil' European cars have higher bearing loads, or if the manufacturers are simply playing it safe when recommending w40+ lube. Anyone?
I've always been leery about thin oil. I'd MUCH rather be a little too far to the right on the Stribeck curve (slight increase in viscous drag) than the left (collapse of oil film!) Still, I've got to admit that the xW-20 craze probably isn't a mechanical kiss of death.
I don't know if BMW and other typical 'thick oil' European cars have higher bearing loads, or if the manufacturers are simply playing it safe when recommending w40+ lube. Anyone?
That's fairly meaningless in the financial reporting world. The credits are still transferable and therefore an asset regardless of whether or not they can be directly transfered for the sole purpose of automanufacturing. There are other leverages they can be applied to.
Originally Posted By: Geonerd
I see people fleeing Phoenix go flying N. on I-17 at 80MPH in 110 degree heat, towing boats, trailers, etc. The cars and trucks are close to WFO for well over half an hour - plenty of time to heat saturate the engine and oil.
4 years and a couple of months ago, I was driving from Taos to Claton NM in 103dF heat. There was a 86 mile stretch of road, dead straight and almost flat. I spent 5 minutes at each of {110, 120, 130, 140} MPH and my car oil and water temperatures were pegged on the lower thermostatic limits (water ~= 183dF, oil ~= 185df). This should dispel the notion that driving fast is necessarily hard on the engine or on the oil or leads necessarily to high temperatures.
Car: 1995 Ferrari F355B, 52K miles, and did not consume more than a tablespoon of oil over 3K miles that trip.
I see people fleeing Phoenix go flying N. on I-17 at 80MPH in 110 degree heat, towing boats, trailers, etc. The cars and trucks are close to WFO for well over half an hour - plenty of time to heat saturate the engine and oil.
4 years and a couple of months ago, I was driving from Taos to Claton NM in 103dF heat. There was a 86 mile stretch of road, dead straight and almost flat. I spent 5 minutes at each of {110, 120, 130, 140} MPH and my car oil and water temperatures were pegged on the lower thermostatic limits (water ~= 183dF, oil ~= 185df). This should dispel the notion that driving fast is necessarily hard on the engine or on the oil or leads necessarily to high temperatures.
Car: 1995 Ferrari F355B, 52K miles, and did not consume more than a tablespoon of oil over 3K miles that trip.
I don't know how you drive in the us but here in sweden I would say that almost all oil PCMO is 5w40. In the gas stations around here you could find 10w40, 0w40, 5w40, 10w40. 10w30 and 30 dino in lawn mower 0.6 liter bottles.
If you are lucky there may be a top dollar 0w30 but none 5w30 whatsoever! 0w20... Say what??? Not availiable. Period.
1. There may be more aggressive driving habits (high rpm)in tight quarters even if high speeds are not the case.
2. OCI are expected to be looong. Recommended ocis is generally 20000-30000 kms or TWO years in the manuals, even though diy people tend to do an oci in the fall in any case.
3. Temps are widely spread. Arctic in the nordics and bloody hot in Greece for example. But everyone run 5w40...
If you are lucky there may be a top dollar 0w30 but none 5w30 whatsoever! 0w20... Say what??? Not availiable. Period.
1. There may be more aggressive driving habits (high rpm)in tight quarters even if high speeds are not the case.
2. OCI are expected to be looong. Recommended ocis is generally 20000-30000 kms or TWO years in the manuals, even though diy people tend to do an oci in the fall in any case.
3. Temps are widely spread. Arctic in the nordics and bloody hot in Greece for example. But everyone run 5w40...
I wonder if it is the long oil change intervals that dictate a heaver oil? If the ideal running oil viscosity is say a 30 weight then over an extended EU OCIs, the oil may end up at a 20 wt. The manufacture recommends a 40 or 50 weight oil knowing that the oil will end up as a 20 weight at the end of the long recommended OCI. By doing this, the engine will run most of it time as a 30 wt during the OCI. This because Oil shears and does get diluted.
In Europe it is not a measure of your manhood that you change your own motor oil. Nor are there "jiffy lubes" everywhere. Both of the above create pressure for changing oil early and often.
In Europe there is indeed more interest in long change intervals. Like fuel in Europe, motor oil is more expensive, too, and I suspect "green" issues trump manhood issues a little more often.
BMW, Mercedes, and VW all publish their own oil specifications and Mercedes at least only approves 'merkun specs (API) when user cannot find Mercedes-spec oil (suggesting get it out ASAP). VW appears to waffle and indicate 'merikun specs are ok, too. Don't know about BMW in this regard.
All three specify longer oil change intervals for their spec oil in Europe than for the same engines with same spec oil sold in the USA--mostly because it's politically unpopular in the USA (see 1st paragraph). Probably also because Americans are more likely to not follow the rules and of course there is always the "cheap" siren song of Rotella at WalMart.
Euro manufacturers selling their wares in the USA are continually running up against "culture" issues. Who among them would have thought that eliminating dipsticks would insult American males' manhood?
In Europe there is indeed more interest in long change intervals. Like fuel in Europe, motor oil is more expensive, too, and I suspect "green" issues trump manhood issues a little more often.
BMW, Mercedes, and VW all publish their own oil specifications and Mercedes at least only approves 'merkun specs (API) when user cannot find Mercedes-spec oil (suggesting get it out ASAP). VW appears to waffle and indicate 'merikun specs are ok, too. Don't know about BMW in this regard.
All three specify longer oil change intervals for their spec oil in Europe than for the same engines with same spec oil sold in the USA--mostly because it's politically unpopular in the USA (see 1st paragraph). Probably also because Americans are more likely to not follow the rules and of course there is always the "cheap" siren song of Rotella at WalMart.
Euro manufacturers selling their wares in the USA are continually running up against "culture" issues. Who among them would have thought that eliminating dipsticks would insult American males' manhood?
Are 5W-20 oils synthetic or non synthetic?, maybe a way to get good cold start lubrication from the oil if not synthetic?
I haven't fully got the hang of the oil grades mainly used in the US, but maybe I can give a picture of the oils used in Sweden/EU to help the discussion. Here non synthetic oils are mostly used in old bangers and lawn mowers, typically 10W-30. The standard type you buy everywhere, even in supermarkets, is 5W-40 "full synthetic" (not true synthetics). This is what most DIY oil changers put in their cars, and can be found in a wide price range. From cheap to long life expensive oils. I use it in both my Jeep TJ and 1977 Saab V4. Climate is snow in winter and warm but not hot summers. normally -10 C to +25 C
BMW and others approved oils are the ones known to BMW to do the job over the long run, long life oils (with i guess better additives that aren't used up as quick). It will be just fine to use any synthetic oil with the right viscosity if you instead change at the good old 10 000 mile intervals to be on the safe side. The 20 000 miles intervals have of course in some cars, like VW/Audi turbo engines and early Saab 9-5 turbos resultet in some oil problems like oil sludge under some driving conditions. It's seems to be a combination of the long intervals and modern low inner friction engines which forces exhaust gases down the cylinders into the oil and breaks it down quicker than expected.
Some intervals have been changed back to 12500 miles due to the problems above. I personally never like/liked the intervals that are now. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, I don't know....
I change at the old intervals anyway because of my old cars, probably will with other newer cars in the future too as I change the oil myself.
What price is a oil service in US at a dealer?, my -97 Jeep Wrangler would be about $150-200. If I change myself it cost $70 for a medium good (cheap range Mobil1 or Castrol) 5W-40 with quality filter. (the Jeep not only uses loads of fuel, it has a huge oil pan as well
)
Edit: New cars use 0W-30 or 0W-40 make depending on long life intervals or not. most have more or less long life intervals now. Oil coolers keep the oil temperature under control with these thin oils.
I haven't fully got the hang of the oil grades mainly used in the US, but maybe I can give a picture of the oils used in Sweden/EU to help the discussion. Here non synthetic oils are mostly used in old bangers and lawn mowers, typically 10W-30. The standard type you buy everywhere, even in supermarkets, is 5W-40 "full synthetic" (not true synthetics). This is what most DIY oil changers put in their cars, and can be found in a wide price range. From cheap to long life expensive oils. I use it in both my Jeep TJ and 1977 Saab V4. Climate is snow in winter and warm but not hot summers. normally -10 C to +25 C
BMW and others approved oils are the ones known to BMW to do the job over the long run, long life oils (with i guess better additives that aren't used up as quick). It will be just fine to use any synthetic oil with the right viscosity if you instead change at the good old 10 000 mile intervals to be on the safe side. The 20 000 miles intervals have of course in some cars, like VW/Audi turbo engines and early Saab 9-5 turbos resultet in some oil problems like oil sludge under some driving conditions. It's seems to be a combination of the long intervals and modern low inner friction engines which forces exhaust gases down the cylinders into the oil and breaks it down quicker than expected.
Some intervals have been changed back to 12500 miles due to the problems above. I personally never like/liked the intervals that are now. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, I don't know....
I change at the old intervals anyway because of my old cars, probably will with other newer cars in the future too as I change the oil myself.What price is a oil service in US at a dealer?, my -97 Jeep Wrangler would be about $150-200. If I change myself it cost $70 for a medium good (cheap range Mobil1 or Castrol) 5W-40 with quality filter. (the Jeep not only uses loads of fuel, it has a huge oil pan as well
)Edit: New cars use 0W-30 or 0W-40 make depending on long life intervals or not. most have more or less long life intervals now. Oil coolers keep the oil temperature under control with these thin oils.
Last edited:
Quote:
Could it be for EPA window sticker ratings? Maybe.
Yes.
Think of CAFE as Cap and Trade for the auto industry.
Whatever oil was used in the engine at the time of rating it's EPA gas mileage is the oil that must be recommended to use in that car.
Oh but the car dealers will tell you it's because of the close tolerance engines of today. After rebuilding engines old and new, many tolerances have been the same for years. BTW, engines in Europe do seem to last longer than they do in the US based on internet chat. Somewhere I read wher a man had over 750,000km on his 4.4l BMW 5 series to give one example.
Could it be for EPA window sticker ratings? Maybe.
Yes.
Think of CAFE as Cap and Trade for the auto industry.
Whatever oil was used in the engine at the time of rating it's EPA gas mileage is the oil that must be recommended to use in that car.
Oh but the car dealers will tell you it's because of the close tolerance engines of today. After rebuilding engines old and new, many tolerances have been the same for years. BTW, engines in Europe do seem to last longer than they do in the US based on internet chat. Somewhere I read wher a man had over 750,000km on his 4.4l BMW 5 series to give one example.
Originally Posted By: Mitch Alsup
Originally Posted By: Geonerd
I see people fleeing Phoenix go flying N. on I-17 at 80MPH in 110 degree heat, towing boats, trailers, etc. The cars and trucks are close to WFO for well over half an hour - plenty of time to heat saturate the engine and oil.
4 years and a couple of months ago, I was driving from Taos to Claton NM in 103dF heat. There was a 86 mile stretch of road, dead straight and almost flat. I spent 5 minutes at each of {110, 120, 130, 140} MPH and my car oil and water temperatures were pegged on the lower thermostatic limits (water ~= 183dF, oil ~= 185df). This should dispel the notion that driving fast is necessarily hard on the engine or on the oil or leads necessarily to high temperatures.
Car: 1995 Ferrari F355B, 52K miles, and did not consume more than a tablespoon of oil over 3K miles that trip.
that is in the car designed to operate at those speeds, now try to do that in camry or accord and resulting oil and coolant temps will be very different
Originally Posted By: Geonerd
I see people fleeing Phoenix go flying N. on I-17 at 80MPH in 110 degree heat, towing boats, trailers, etc. The cars and trucks are close to WFO for well over half an hour - plenty of time to heat saturate the engine and oil.
4 years and a couple of months ago, I was driving from Taos to Claton NM in 103dF heat. There was a 86 mile stretch of road, dead straight and almost flat. I spent 5 minutes at each of {110, 120, 130, 140} MPH and my car oil and water temperatures were pegged on the lower thermostatic limits (water ~= 183dF, oil ~= 185df). This should dispel the notion that driving fast is necessarily hard on the engine or on the oil or leads necessarily to high temperatures.
Car: 1995 Ferrari F355B, 52K miles, and did not consume more than a tablespoon of oil over 3K miles that trip.
that is in the car designed to operate at those speeds, now try to do that in camry or accord and resulting oil and coolant temps will be very different
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
You dance around it here, but CAFE is to allow more units to be produced. There's no conservation to it at all. It's part of a apportioned out consumption formula. Keep the pipelines full. Assembly pipelines ...part producer pipe lines ..more people can afford cars ..more people need service for cars. Our oil change intervals are short. Europe could use lower visc oils too if they had shorter intervals ..and would really need them in the ultra capable chassis if they didn't buffer the sumps to higher capacities and employ coolers and whatnot.
It's not about saving anything. It's about enabling consumption of all kinds.
It's not about saving anything. It's about enabling consumption of all kinds.
There's one big objective reason why OCIs for European diesels in North America are shorter than Europe: it's called EGR.
Charlie
Charlie
Hi,
m37charlie - You said this:
"There's one big objective reason why OCIs for European diesels in North America are shorter than Europe: it's called EGR."
Can you please explain?
m37charlie - You said this:
"There's one big objective reason why OCIs for European diesels in North America are shorter than Europe: it's called EGR."
Can you please explain?
EGR: Exhaust Gas Recirculation to control NOx emissions
Hi,
HTSS_TR - Thanks I am very very aware of EGR systems believe me. I was seeking the intent of the comments from the Poster
Thanks
HTSS_TR - Thanks I am very very aware of EGR systems believe me. I was seeking the intent of the comments from the Poster
Thanks
Last edited:
If one examines current emission specs on light and heavy duty diesels one could conclude that the EU is "tighter" on particulates but the US is tighter on NOx. Additionally, the European mfgs embraced urea/SCR much earlier than the US mfgs and as a result the ratio of EGR to SCR systems in the US is much higher than in the EU; including European engines imported to the US. To my knowledge EGR recirculation ratios are lower in Europe, when EGR is used.
It's difficult to tell for sure, but IMHO EGR seems very hard on oil with soot and acid concentrations. 2 of the 5 engine tests in the ACEA E7 and E9 sequences specifically pertain to soot and resultant wear.
For 2008 era heavy duty trucks, the typical emission control system in European trucks seems to be urea/SCR + DPF; although MAN offer EGR as a substitute option. In US trucks it is EGR/DPF although there is a tide of changing opinion towards "lighter" EGR/urea/SCR + DPF for 2010 emissions. Detroit Diesel are actually advertising that "power and economy will be back in 2010", implying that EGR rates will be quite low with the institution of urea/SCR.
Severity of oil stress is just one of EGR's problems. The Cummins 6.7L diesel has a constellation of common problems revolving around EGR including compressor blade soot build-up and the Ford/Navistar's EGR cooler problems are notorious.
It would very interesting to examine prevalence of engine problems and wear rates on MAN engines equipped with EGR vs. SCR. Although they specify 3277 oils for EGR and either 3277-CRT or 3477 oils (I believe E6+ and E9+ respectively, although it might be the other way around) for SCR.
The situation with light duty diesel is analagous.
Charlie
It's difficult to tell for sure, but IMHO EGR seems very hard on oil with soot and acid concentrations. 2 of the 5 engine tests in the ACEA E7 and E9 sequences specifically pertain to soot and resultant wear.
For 2008 era heavy duty trucks, the typical emission control system in European trucks seems to be urea/SCR + DPF; although MAN offer EGR as a substitute option. In US trucks it is EGR/DPF although there is a tide of changing opinion towards "lighter" EGR/urea/SCR + DPF for 2010 emissions. Detroit Diesel are actually advertising that "power and economy will be back in 2010", implying that EGR rates will be quite low with the institution of urea/SCR.
Severity of oil stress is just one of EGR's problems. The Cummins 6.7L diesel has a constellation of common problems revolving around EGR including compressor blade soot build-up and the Ford/Navistar's EGR cooler problems are notorious.
It would very interesting to examine prevalence of engine problems and wear rates on MAN engines equipped with EGR vs. SCR. Although they specify 3277 oils for EGR and either 3277-CRT or 3477 oils (I believe E6+ and E9+ respectively, although it might be the other way around) for SCR.
The situation with light duty diesel is analagous.
Charlie
Hi,
3=m37charlie - This is really not the Forum for such a discussion. The Trucker's Forum is!
The real issues with NA heavy diesel engine lubricants started with the L10 Cummins and its design flaws in the mid 1980s
It had started with the Scania and Volvo engines of the late 1960s-early 1970s
Sadly until around 1988 the API never keep up with NA engine developments! Electronic engine management had commenced a little earlier buying them more time. The formation of ACEA hurried them up!
The EGR problems commenced here (in OZ) around MY1999 when the engine Manufacturers realised that they had to comply with the HO requirements for oil specifications - CH-4 was made mandatory over CG-4. I saw many engines where Fleet Engineers thought otherwise and the Manufacturers refused to cover related Warranty matters. I arbitrated in a number of cases! EGR was the culprit
Euro 1 and etc were approached via different design philosophies to NA. Fuel economy was embraced from the outset. Emission controls on heavy diesels seriously commenced in the 1970s. The Euro approach included synthetic lubricant, smaller sump sizes (than NA designs) and longer OCIs and more comprehensive filtration. NA designs in this era were wasteful and very basic!
This is a very complex area that is still current (design and application) with both hydrogen and gas powered buses operating here in OZ. Both of my youngest Sons are CAT trained Technicians and one (No 4) is a Senior MAN Tech. The electronic complexity of the latest MAN engines is quite unbelievable
We are about to see the introduction of the CAT-Navistar truck here in the next year. Son No 4 (youngest) is heavily involved in that process. He is well trained on the "C" series engines
I often get criticised here on BITOG for promoting the use of Manufacturer Approved lubricants - so be it, but it is based on cool cold facts!
3=m37charlie - This is really not the Forum for such a discussion. The Trucker's Forum is!
The real issues with NA heavy diesel engine lubricants started with the L10 Cummins and its design flaws in the mid 1980s
It had started with the Scania and Volvo engines of the late 1960s-early 1970s
Sadly until around 1988 the API never keep up with NA engine developments! Electronic engine management had commenced a little earlier buying them more time. The formation of ACEA hurried them up!
The EGR problems commenced here (in OZ) around MY1999 when the engine Manufacturers realised that they had to comply with the HO requirements for oil specifications - CH-4 was made mandatory over CG-4. I saw many engines where Fleet Engineers thought otherwise and the Manufacturers refused to cover related Warranty matters. I arbitrated in a number of cases! EGR was the culprit
Euro 1 and etc were approached via different design philosophies to NA. Fuel economy was embraced from the outset. Emission controls on heavy diesels seriously commenced in the 1970s. The Euro approach included synthetic lubricant, smaller sump sizes (than NA designs) and longer OCIs and more comprehensive filtration. NA designs in this era were wasteful and very basic!
This is a very complex area that is still current (design and application) with both hydrogen and gas powered buses operating here in OZ. Both of my youngest Sons are CAT trained Technicians and one (No 4) is a Senior MAN Tech. The electronic complexity of the latest MAN engines is quite unbelievable
We are about to see the introduction of the CAT-Navistar truck here in the next year. Son No 4 (youngest) is heavily involved in that process. He is well trained on the "C" series engines
I often get criticised here on BITOG for promoting the use of Manufacturer Approved lubricants - so be it, but it is based on cool cold facts!
- Status
Similar threads
