why different oil for U.S. and Europe?

[ikeepmychevytoo]

Originally Posted By: Geoff
Here is the article w/quote from Bob Lutz about the 60's small block trials in Europe:
http://www.motortrend.com/features/112_0506_favorite_small_block/index.html
Note the comments about "finned oil pan" and "huge oil cooler" needing to be used.

Thank you Geoff for the interesting read. I sensed a slight techno-bigotry though. I never had a problem with a 173 v-sixer at 190 kph extended. 1984 car with 1978-design engine. Many cars does such extended higher speeds but usually with a can of oil in the trunk. In my case no observable oil loss with the Chevy... All in all just 4800 rpm @ 120 mph.

Oil specification 5W-30 preferred with straight 20W in the list (as fashionable back in the day). 3.6 to 3.8 liters sump capacity. Same radiator with a 350 though. Closing to 300K kms.

 

[gpshumway]

Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
Originally Posted By: pavelow
There's no reason in this day and age of modern engine engineering and design that a "special" 40wt oil should be needed or required. Same goes for automatic transmission fluid in European vehicles. The Europeans need to get their stuff together and use more standard lubrication sources! FYI-I'm not picking on the Europeans here, I love their cars, I just hate thier oil and other driveline fluid snobbery.


Finally, European car makers sell most of their cars in Europe. Why would they use API specs instead of ACEA or their own Daimler or BMW or VAG standards?


I don't think pavelow is advocating for API specs, simply against proprietary specs. The ACEA is an organization composed of European auto manufacturers. What's the point of forming such an organization and putting out industry standard oil specs if the member companies simply put out their own proprietary oil specs any way?

I agree, it would be nice if the Europeans got their sh!t together and came up with some common standards so we didn't have to worry so much about which oil is currently on the super secret ever changing manufacturer's approved list.

As an example, a well intentioned owner could easily get the idea that US Castrol Edge is VW approved.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
gpshumway - You said this:
"I agree, it would be nice if the Europeans got their sh!t together and came up with some common standards so we didn't have to worry so much about which oil is currently on the super secret ever changing manufacturer's approved list."

Well, they have it together they formed ACEA! The API is playing catchup - as they have been for some several yerars now

Manufacturer Approvals have been around for 60 odd years. They were effectively started by CAT! They are vital in order to get the maximum durability and driveability from their equipment.

Remember that this Forum is an International one - it is not dedicated to things US!

 

[pavelow]

Originally Posted By: jocktheglide
Im curious as to why in the U.S. vs Europe why they spec different oils for the same car??? Do europeans stress their car greater than U.S. folks? For example based on what someone told:

you can have a toyota prius in the U.S. and it speced at 5w-20 I believe, but in europe they spec it at 5w-40???

I noticed reading on the net this is the same for all cars it can be the same car, but each continent use different grade oil? Reading over at the bimmer forums in euriope they use a 10w-60 grade I believe, but here in U.S. they use a 5w-30?
Do Europeans drive harder than us in the US? I doubt it.

As for Europe using a 60wt oil, that's just stupid-there's no reason for a 60wt oil in a passenger car engine, performance or not. Unless they are using that 60wt to mask an engineering/oiling issue. If that's the case, well, I think that speaks for itself. Even the big old big blocks of the muscle car era with their loose internal clearances didn't even require a 60wt oil. lol

 

[pavelow]

Originally Posted By: gpshumway
Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
Originally Posted By: pavelow
There's no reason in this day and age of modern engine engineering and design that a "special" 40wt oil should be needed or required. Same goes for automatic transmission fluid in European vehicles. The Europeans need to get their stuff together and use more standard lubrication sources! FYI-I'm not picking on the Europeans here, I love their cars, I just hate thier oil and other driveline fluid snobbery.


Finally, European car makers sell most of their cars in Europe. Why would they use API specs instead of ACEA or their own Daimler or BMW or VAG standards?


I don't think pavelow is advocating for API specs, simply against proprietary specs. The ACEA is an organization composed of European auto manufacturers. What's the point of forming such an organization and putting out industry standard oil specs if the member companies simply put out their own proprietary oil specs any way?

I agree, it would be nice if the Europeans got their sh!t together and came up with some common standards so we didn't have to worry so much about which oil is currently on the super secret ever changing manufacturer's approved list.

Yes. I'm against the proprietary oil specs that the Euros are using.

 

[m37charlie]

Originally Posted By: pavelow

As for Europe using a 60wt oil, that's just stupid-there's no reason for a 60wt oil in a passenger car engine, performance or not. Unless they are using that 60wt to mask an engineering/oiling issue. If that's the case, well, I think that speaks for itself. Even the big old big blocks of the muscle car era with their loose internal clearances didn't even require a 60wt oil. lol


Is someone pointing a gun at you and making you buy a BMW M5?
It's not like that's exactly a mainstream car, with >100hp/L out of a nonturbo engine and an 8000rpm redline.

Charlie

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: pavelow
Originally Posted By: gpshumway
Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
Originally Posted By: pavelow
There's no reason in this day and age of modern engine engineering and design that a "special" 40wt oil should be needed or required. Same goes for automatic transmission fluid in European vehicles. The Europeans need to get their stuff together and use more standard lubrication sources! FYI-I'm not picking on the Europeans here, I love their cars, I just hate thier oil and other driveline fluid snobbery.


Finally, European car makers sell most of their cars in Europe. Why would they use API specs instead of ACEA or their own Daimler or BMW or VAG standards?


I don't think pavelow is advocating for API specs, simply against proprietary specs. The ACEA is an organization composed of European auto manufacturers. What's the point of forming such an organization and putting out industry standard oil specs if the member companies simply put out their own proprietary oil specs any way?

I agree, it would be nice if the Europeans got their sh!t together and came up with some common standards so we didn't have to worry so much about which oil is currently on the super secret ever changing manufacturer's approved list.

Yes. I'm against the proprietary oil specs that the Euros are using.


And what specs would those be? And as noted above, they do have their ..... together. ACEA is a common standard. BTW, approved oils are not on some super secret list.

 

[m37charlie]

Here's a list of Mercedes' lists; lots of choices. Especially if you live in Europe:
http://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevolistenmain.php?session_id=&navigation_path=&language_id=1

Charlie

 

[pavelow]

Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Originally Posted By: pavelow

As for Europe using a 60wt oil, that's just stupid-there's no reason for a 60wt oil in a passenger car engine, performance or not. Unless they are using that 60wt to mask an engineering/oiling issue. If that's the case, well, I think that speaks for itself. Even the big old big blocks of the muscle car era with their loose internal clearances didn't even require a 60wt oil. lol


Is someone pointing a gun at you and making you buy a BMW M5?
It's not like that's exactly a mainstream car, with >100hp/L out of a nonturbo engine and an 8000rpm redline.

Charlie
You are absolutely correct. Nobody is pointing a gun at me. But that doesn't mean I can't talk smack about a seemingly ridiculous oil requirement. Again, more Euro oil snobbery at work here. To each their own. lol

 

[pavelow]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: pavelow

There's no reason in this day and age of modern engine engineering and design that a "special" 40wt oil should be needed or required. Same goes for automatic transmission fluid in European vehicles. The Europeans need to get their stuff together and use more standard lubrication sources! FYI-I'm not picking on the Europeans here, I love their cars, I just hate thier oil and other driveline fluid snobbery.


Finally, European car makers sell most of their cars in Europe. Why would they use API specs instead of ACEA or their own Daimler or BMW or VAG standards?


I don't think pavelow is advocating for API specs, simply against proprietary specs. The ACEA is an organization composed of European auto manufacturers. What's the point of forming such an organization and putting out industry standard oil specs if the member companies simply put out their own proprietary oil specs any way?

I agree, it would be nice if the Europeans got their sh!t together and came up with some common standards so we didn't have to worry so much about which oil is currently on the super secret ever changing manufacturer's approved list.



Quote:
And what specs would those be? And as noted above, they do have their ..... together. ACEA is a common standard. BTW, approved oils are not on some super secret list.
Why can't the Euros build their engines to fall within the umbrella of API specs if they plan on selling their cars in the US? If they want to sell in the US, they should have to meet or build to API specs. Other manufacturers don't seem to have this issue.

The "driving" they do in Europe is no worse off than the driving we see here in the US. I'd venture to go so far as to say that the driving here in the US is worse than in Europe. Our weather spectrum is much more volatile here in the US too.....from well below 0F air temps to 110F+ temps. Europe doesn't have temp swings/seasons like that. So I just cannot understand why there's a need for a Euro spec oil when an API oil can handle the afformentioned things just fine.

 

[Trajan]

Read Doug Hillary's comments above. Also, why can't the US build their engines to fall within the umbrella of ACEA specs if they plan on selling their cars in Europe? If they want to sell in Europe, they should have to meet or build to ACEA specs.

And what super secret list are you talking about?

BTW: http://www.europeancarweb.com/news/epcp_0811_oe_approved_car_oils/index.html

So much for this "super secret list."

http://www.bimmerfest.com/wiki/index.php?title=BMW_E46

On this page is a list. Some secret huh?

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
pavelow - You said this:
"Why can't the Euros build their engines to fall within the umbrella of API specs if they plan on selling their cars in the US? If they want to sell in the US, they should have to meet or build to API specs. Other manufacturers don't seem to have this issue."

The API is an amalgam of the Oil Companies. The ACEA is an amalgam of all Euro vehicle and engine Manufacturers

ACEA sets basic lubricant Quality standards for their Members for Worldwide consumption. The Manufacturers build on these to suit their individual technologies

Live abroad and see what CAT and Cummins and etc demand - their own specs!

After years in a "haze" the API is playing "catch-up" (and have been for a decade or more) - thanks to ACEA!!

 

[pavelow]

I can respect that.

 

[Mustang2008Z]

I would like to state that yes, here in the U.S. we have the API; American Petroleum Institute specifications for motor oils, etc. There is, also, another group that works very closely with API. The name of it is:

International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee, otherwise known as ILSAC, that sets GF-4 and GF-5 Standards.

This wonderful committee is made up of JAMA (Japanese Manufacturers) Daimler-Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors. Yes, it is true, now, that Chrysler is on its' own, but each manufacturer has a voice related to API Standards, and those API Standards will need to meet GF-5 very soon. Yes, we have to follow API standards in the U.S., but there is a manufacturer committee that works right along with the API.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Mustang2008Z - Of course ILSAC plays a role - as do the Committees that now oversee the API's "C" Quality rating developments

Ths is all part of "catchup" IMO and this liaison with the Auto Industry in the US commenced in the 1980s after a series of unfortunate incidents. These included the "trigger" for Cummins to formulate its own "Standards" just as CAT had domn in the 1930s

IMO the Manufacturer's Specifications will become more and more important in the development of our Worldwide (not solely the US) Auto Industry and their emerging technologies

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
I thought this exchange from the Cooling Forum was interesting:

"Why isn't Cummins redesigning the engine to work with this coolant?"

"The redesign would take considerable time and resources. Cummins' position is that the coolant should be reformulated such that it does not adversely affect engine components. The expectation of the industry is that coolants and lubricating oils will be formulated so that they are compatible with currently available engines."

Cummins was one Company who had technology advancing quicker than the API did during the late 1970s - early 1908s!