Why are BMW, Mercedes Benz and Audi so expensive to fix?

[edyvw]

You had a 3.3L V6?

3.5. 2015.

 

[Nick1994]

Every time I hear people complaining about the tragedy of driving a Toyota, this is how I picture them being:

 

[edyvw]

My take is:

1. Most owners are affluent, time is money, and they will pay what it takes to get their vehicles fixed.

2. Dealers take advantage of owners by using matrix pricing to add a few % over book part prices just because they can, they also add bogus items to invoices. People don't ask and just fork over $$$.

3. German engineering is pretty garbage over the long run, sure there are outliers with some vehicles lasting longer, but on average you don't see many 250k+ newer MBs on the road. German cars may be technically interesting but longevity is not the same as German makes from the 80's and earlier.

Look at resale prices and how much is lost in value compared to Toyota / Lexus / Honda / Acura. Once the warranty is up resale value tanks because everyone knows they cost an arm and a leg to maintain since the dashboard has a tendency to light up like a Christmas tree over stupid things. Mechanics I know despise working on these vehicles but if they want employment, it's what pays the bills.

3. WOuld be an issue with numerous taxi owners in Europe.
Resale prices do not mean anything. Tesla is assembled like cheap Chines laptops and yet people flock to them.
They do not light up over stupid things. They light up bcs. you have failed light bulb for example, and in Toyota you will get pulled over that (at least in Sienna it would not indicate burned bulb). So lack of lights on the dashboard does not indicate a lack of problems. in BMW it will light up if you put LED light. Why? Bcs. housing and installation are not designed around LED light unless it came from the factory. Of course, it might be an issue for Civic ricers, but....
Also, problems generally with BMWs, some VWs (GTI), and some MB is second and more often third-hand owners.
I always take this thread title as an example: I bout 2013 BMW 328, what are must-have modifications? Or 335 with N54 engine that can sustain 1100hp bcs. string internals. They buy 2007, with some 190,000 miles, slap single turbo instead of original twin-turbo design, and have CEL. First reaction: I just did this, and I make 450whp, but this garbage of a car... Of course, no new injectors, no new intercooler appropriate for such a turbo. It is hard to go that route with Toyota, Honda, etc. Engineering does not allow for the aftermarket industry of various turbo designs to pop out like mushrooms after rain. Then problems start bcs. they bought maybe a car worth $10k, and want 3X power for $1000. That is not how things work. After that, everything is downhill.

 

[edyvw]

Every time I hear people complaining about the tragedy of driving a Toyota, this is how I picture them being:

View attachment 105637

It is not a tragedy, but we should get paid for it

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

One thing glossed over, Lexus made the Type F or Flagship, then brought to the US as an LS400 (Hmm.. Lexus. Possible Luxury exported to the US Toyota has never outright denied this) by buying a then-new S class and working on how to make a similar experience, for cheaper.

I believe the LS400s were pretty solid or are regarded as such.

Toyota surely is good, they likely can even be called frugal in how they do things. Just that Lexus is, by and large, a creation of Toyota.

If only they had brought over the Soarer or the Chaser or other models, like Honda did with an Acura TSX alongside a Honda Accord. But surely Mercedes is more luxurious, ergo better.

 

[Nick1994]

It is not a tragedy, but we should get paid for it

Here’s what I also picture:

“Sir, what ever happened to you!?”

“I, I, I was riddled with having to drive a TOYOTA further than a city block. I don’t know how much longer I have left to live. Promise me you’ll tell my wife and kids I love them”

(Insert gurgling dying sounds)

(Insert hospital machine flatline sound)

(Movie picture fades out)

 

[wag123]

One thing that nothing beats minivan is practicality, and I don’t want to give up that as we usually do long road trips. And AWD+mpg is good combo on new one. Old one had AWD but driving experience definitely didn’t justify gas guzzling behavior. But, might go with Atlas turbo. Will see in few months.

Considering how you HATE Toyota, denigrate their products relentlessly, and insult their owners at every opportunity, if you purchase another Sienna (or any other Toyota product) instead of an Atlas Turbo, you have a screw loose. Seriously! Nobody is forcing anybody to purchase and/or drive ANYTHING.

 

[JohnnyG]

The rotor surface is ridiculously small for 4.700lbs vehicle. 12.9", but has a fairly big hub. They compensated for that with a long pad that fits two-pot calipers. First, pad covers a lot of rotor, which doesn't allow enough cooling. Rear pads a laughable, which makes front brakes work harder.
I think the reason is to lower a. cost and b. cost of tires as 17" wheels can fit those rotors. In reality, 18" wheels should be the minimum size with rotors at least 340mm and larger rear brakes.
I had the same issues with Prado.

Not quite following you here, which vehicle are you referring to?

 

[Skippy722]

I sold my Sienna with 85k as I am not planning any road trips this year and cashed in on used car prices.
At 80k left strut started to leak.
When I bought car at 36k it already had vibrating rotors. Replaced with EBC, good but EBC pads obliterated rotor after 30k. Put Raybestos, vibrating after 10k.
Master cylinder died at 70k.
That is interesting story that shows mentality of Toyota owners. I was trying to figure out why my brakes are soft then hard etc. Asked colleague who has same car if he had these symptoms, he said: “oh yes, but it doesn’t bother me. Great car though.”
Take into consideration that this car was driven 99% of time on hwy. My BMW is DD.
Not to mention squeaks, road noise etc.
And gem: unloading stuff at the hotel in NE, going to Chicago. I pressed close button and lift gate started to go down. My 4yr old pushes bike rack that swings on a side and lift gate hits rack. Here is result and $3,200 quote from Toyota. My friend Rusty aligned gate but it could not close pressing button anymore. It is widely known issue which Toyota, as always blames drivers and not admitting POS quality. Same issue on new Sienna/HL.
View attachment 105431

Yeesh… my wife made our hatch fight the garage door on our Grand Caravan and it didn’t do that. It put a dent in the bottom, but it’s still lined up perfectly!

The brakes do vibrate though coming down from highway speeds. Win some, lose some.

 

[Badgerstate]

Part of it is because they are luxury brands, part of it is the level of engineering that goes to them and part of it because they are less common vehicles, so the parts are less common, dealt with in less volume, so are more expensive.

 

[Owen Lucas]

3. WOuld be an issue with numerous taxi owners in Europe.

Aren't MB taxis just econo stripped out fleet diesel (reliable) versions without all of the newfangled do-dads that break down? I would think the diesels last longer and are more trouble free. I don't know but I would assume use of diesel is one reason MBs can be more reliable?

Resale prices do not mean anything.

I don't know, I think resale value has a lot to do with reliability, or at least the perception of reliability. Look at used Toyota Tacoma prices for example. The 3rd owner experience of a used German car certainly doesn't help with the reputation whereas the 3rd owner of a Camry is mostly fine. Just my experience being in the automotive industry, I haven't been around German vehicles enough though.

 

[edyvw]

Here’s what I also picture:

“Sir, what ever happened to you!?”

“I, I, I was riddled with having to drive a TOYOTA further than a city block. I don’t know how much longer I have left to live. Promise me you’ll tell my wife and kids I love them”

(Insert gurgling dying sounds)

(Insert hospital machine flatline sound)

(Movie picture fades out)

View attachment 105638

I am telling you, tragedy.

 

[brianl703]

I am telling you, tragedy.

I can't imagine that driving a Toyota is any more tragic or traumatic than putting your dishes in the dishwasher, adding detergent, and pushing the start button.

 

[edyvw]

Considering how you HATE Toyota, denigrate their products relentlessly, and insult their owners at every opportunity, if you purchase another Sienna (or any other Toyota product) instead of an Atlas Turbo, you have a screw loose. Seriously! Nobody is forcing anybody to purchase and/or drive ANYTHING.

Insult owners? You constantly find yourself being insulted by what I say about PRODUCT. I mean, I can’t help your insecurities. I am OK with my purchase decisions, but obviously you are not.

 

[edyvw]

I can't imagine that driving a Toyota is any more tragic or traumatic than putting your dishes in the dishwasher, adding detergent, and pushing the start button.

Bingo. Experience is right there.

 

[edyvw]

Aren't MB taxis just econo stripped out fleet diesel (reliable) versions without all of the newfangled do-dads that break down? I would think the diesels last longer and are more trouble free. I don't know but I would assume use of diesel is one reason MBs can be more reliable?


I don't know, I think resale value has a lot to do with reliability, or at least the perception of reliability. Look at used Toyota Tacoma prices for example. The 3rd owner experience of a used German car certainly doesn't help with the reputation whereas the 3rd owner of a Camry is mostly fine. Just my experience being in the automotive industry, I haven't been around German vehicles enough though.

Hmmm, diesels are more complex last 15 years than gasoline engines. That is not your W123.
But later ownership of European vehicles, especially turbo vehicles is hit and miss.
I was at the Pikes Peak Hill Climb event this Saturday and you should see horror with “modified “ cars. You ain’t gonna see Camry there. But 335 with pink wheels? Mismatched tires? Bubbly tint? You bet.

 

[Wolf359]

Aren't MB taxis just econo stripped out fleet diesel (reliable) versions without all of the newfangled do-dads that break down? I would think the diesels last longer and are more trouble free. I don't know but I would assume use of diesel is one reason MBs can be more reliable?

I don't know, I think resale value has a lot to do with reliability, or at least the perception of reliability. Look at used Toyota Tacoma prices for example. The 3rd owner experience of a used German car certainly doesn't help with the reputation whereas the 3rd owner of a Camry is mostly fine. Just my experience being in the automotive industry, I haven't been around German vehicles enough though.

I've seen a few MB taxis that people bought and compared them to the US cars. Basically MB North America specs out the MB cars for the US and they have way more features than the basic models sold in Europe. For instance in some of the older generation E classes, the engines start at 3.5 then 5.5 and then 6.3 but I think they had sub 2.0 engines in Europe. And while here, a sunroof is standard and the pano is an option, the taxi didn't have any sunroof, nor other stuff that's standard here like 3 position memory seats, navigation, etc. Basically they were really stripper models.

And yeah, it's perceived reliability. Wasn't really scared of buying them used, the two I own now were bought bought outside of warranty and repairs haven't been too crazy. I think part of it is that people who can easily afford them can dump them easily when a new model comes out and that happens on a 3-4 year basis as they tend to do a refresh after 4 years and a new model after 7 years. So I've gotten them for 1/3 to 1/4 of list price. I do like how Mercedes has the WIS/EPC (dealer repair manual/electronic parts lookup) easily available although they just changed their whole system.

 

[ZeeOSix]

a ...

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[edyvw]

Part of it is because they are luxury brands, part of it is the level of engineering that goes to them and part of it because they are less common vehicles, so the parts are less common, dealt with in less volume, so are more expensive.

I've seen a few MB taxis that people bought and compared them to the US cars. Basically MB North America specs out the MB cars for the US and they have way more features than the basic models sold in Europe. For instance in some of the older generation E classes, the engines start at 3.5 then 5.5 and then 6.3 but I think they had sub 2.0 engines in Europe. And while here, a sunroof is standard and the pano is an option, the taxi didn't have any sunroof, nor other stuff that's standard here like 3 position memory seats, navigation, etc. Basically they were really stripper models.

And yeah, it's perceived reliability. Wasn't really scared of buying them used, the two I own now were bought bought outside of warranty and repairs haven't been too crazy. I think part of it is that people who can easily afford them can dump them easily when a new model comes out and that happens on a 3-4 year basis as they tend to do a refresh after 4 years and a new model after 7 years. So I've gotten them for 1/3 to 1/4 of list price. I do like how Mercedes has the WIS/EPC (dealer repair manual/electronic parts lookup) easily available although they just changed their whole system.

My brother has 2007 E220cdi with close to 500,000km. He puts probably around 80,000km a year. 220cdi is still very complex engine for American standards. High pressure common rail pump, variable turbo, DPF etc. This one actually has all the common stuff you can find in the US. But, E200 or 220cdi, which are staple of taxi drivers are much more complex than E350, 550.

 

[Wolf359]

My brother has 2007 E220cdi with close to 500,000km. He puts probably around 80,000km a year. 220cdi is still very complex engine for American standards. High pressure common rail pump, variable turbo, DPF etc. This one actually has all the common stuff you can find in the US. But, E200 or 220cdi, which are staple of taxi drivers are much more complex than E350, 550.

They basically don't have the options like keyless go, parktronic, power trunk closers, pano roofs, bixenons/active curve illuminaton, etc. Got all that on both cars. Also massage seats on one and real leather on the other. Those were all extra cost options.