Why are BMW, Mercedes Benz and Audi so expensive to fix?

[supton]

One thing that nothing beats minivan is practicality, and I don’t want to give up that as we usually do long road trips. And AWD+mpg is good combo on new one. Old one had AWD but driving experience definitely didn’t justify gas guzzling behavior. But, might go with Atlas turbo. Will see in few months.

I think you're nuts.

• You hated the last Toyota you had
• You still hate the one you have overseas
• The AWD on this setup is likely nothing like what you had on the prior Toyota--I can't see it being as good (and I'm not saying your prior Sienna had "good" AWD)
• a NA 2.5L at your elevation has got to suck. Batteries are nice--until they run out on a long hill. Then you have... a small 2.5L optimized for mpg not power
• You're convinced Toyota isn't reliable, nor what it's cracked up to be

Honestly, if you go ahead and buy the Sienna, I'm not sure if anyone will listen to your complaints about whatever ills it will have.

 

[IndyIan]

I already told you, the average Toyota owner is perfectly fine with a failing brake cylinder, as my friend would say: yeah, it does not bother me, great vehicle though.
I still own Prado, I own VW and BMW, and both were together more reliable than Sienna. Prado on other hand can go reliability-wise together with Yugo 55 I had once. Though I must say, Yugo was squeaking less than Sienna.
The problem with you guys is that you drive the refrigerator every day. You wake up, you open your "General Electric" refrigerator, and drive kids to school, work, etc. Then someone who has a car that is actually nice to drive says it is more reliable and that is something you cannot get over it. You gonna keep driving that, and I will keep driving my BMW, drive kids to school, work, skiing, track it, and still be more reliable.

So how many little fixes have you had to do to your BMW? For a typical owner each one is likely $3-400 plus actually going to the dealer. How much more has the Sienna cost in that case? For alot of people, even just a single $1200 trip to the dealer is much better that three $400 ones...

Also at some point the Sienna became a N.A. only vehicle (needed to be big and cheap) which may have indicated Toyota was really trying out a broader cost cutting strategy on them including parts suppliers? Most guys I know either go Grand Caravan on the cheap, or a used Odyssey for minivans and most do fine once the Caravan gets some decent brakes.

 

[Shel_B]

Here is comparison of brake prices, favorite complaint item when it comes to BMW. Comparing to Camry, favorite appliance vehicle:
2011 Camry 3.5 V6:
Front rotors Advics (OEM): $49
Rear rotors Advics (OEM): $46
Front pads Advics/Akebono (both OEM): $65-67.
Rear pads Advics/Akebono (both OEM) $47.

2011 BMW 328:
Front rotors ATE (OEM) : $52
Rear Rotors ATE (OEM): $44.

Front Pads Jurid (OEM): $55.
Rear pads Jurid (OEM): $31.

Unlike Toyota, BMW brakes good.

What specific issues do you have with Toyota brakes?

 

[The Critic]

What specific issues do you have with Toyota brakes?

Probably vibration from the front rotors, which is pretty common on the Sienna/Highlander platform cars. They usually need a brake job every 20-30K if you do not like any vibration.

 

[edyvw]

So how many little fixes have you had to do to your BMW? For a typical owner each one is likely $3-400 plus actually going to the dealer. How much more has the Sienna cost in that case? For alot of people, even just a single $1200 trip to the dealer is much better that three $400 ones...

Also at some point the Sienna became a N.A. only vehicle (needed to be big and cheap) which may have indicated Toyota was really trying out a broader cost cutting strategy on them including parts suppliers? Most guys I know either go Grand Caravan on the cheap, or a used Odyssey for minivans and most do fine once the Caravan gets some decent brakes.

So far on BMW in 42,000 miles (bought car with 80k), I had replaced the gasket on the oil filter housing, and this gasket on the fuel pump (mind you, this is a universal design with a supplier that supplies to other companies, including Toyota for the same part).
On Sienna I had to replace:
2X brakes, with 3rd set purchased but sold the car (will sell parts on CL).
Struts and shocks were purchased but decided to sell the car (Again CL)
Master cyl.
"Fixing" (basically, just aligning rear liftgate, still could not close it using the button): $300 (Toyota quoted $3,200).

Now, take into consideration that Sienna had 85k when it was sold, and BMW has 122k and I track that car. Actually, I upgraded struts and shocks for track purposes on BMW at 105k and one shock was showing some weakness (it was tracked, OE shock) while struts were going strong regardless of track abuse.
Also, I DID work on SIenna. Master Cyl. replacement on Sienna would not be below $500, and you can calculate brakes, struts, and shocks, and that is not counting hinges that are as strong as hinges on my drawer in the office. I am not sure why do you think the Toyota dealership is cheaper? They wanted to charge the spare tire 3X over what I paid for BMW X5.

Now, I did a lot of upgrades on BMW suspension, for the sake of upgrade, bcs. it is worth it.

Now, I listed some time ago all the fixes I had to do on Prado.

Also, one thing, on Toyota, there are some things I did not bother to fix. I upgraded audio on BMW and took down probably 6-7 times door panels to adjust speaker wiring etc. On Sienna, I had a rattling window when increasing volume (JBL) but I just could not make myself take down the panel. Kind of the same way when you don't bother to fix some appliance part in the house. Just not worth it.

 

[edyvw]

What specific issues do you have with Toyota brakes?

They are undersized the way I drive (Mind you I use engine braking). Good to drop kids to school though.

 

[brianl703]

That is interesting story that shows mentality of Toyota owners. I was trying to figure out why my brakes are soft then hard etc. Asked colleague who has same car if he had these symptoms, he said: “oh yes, but it doesn’t bother me. Great car though.”

From what I can tell, if the car will go from point "A" to point "B" they're happy with it. It might have a christmas tree dashboard and bottom out on speed bumps and metal on metal noises when they hit the brakes, but as long as it runs, A-OK.

 

[edyvw]

I think you're nuts.

• You hated the last Toyota you had
• You still hate the one you have overseas
• The AWD on this setup is likely nothing like what you had on the prior Toyota--I can't see it being as good (and I'm not saying your prior Sienna had "good" AWD)
• a NA 2.5L at your elevation has got to suck. Batteries are nice--until they run out on a long hill. Then you have... a small 2.5L optimized for mpg not power
• You're convinced Toyota isn't reliable, nor what it's cracked up to be

Honestly, if you go ahead and buy the Sienna, I'm not sure if anyone will listen to your complaints about whatever ills it will have.

I drove it, it is gutless. So, still thinking. AWD was horrid in the previous one, but I use always snow tires. Does its job, won't get stuck in a blizzard on parking lots at ski resorts,. Far cry from VW or BMW, but I use a minivan only when skiing with family anyway, so do not push it. Basically, anything driving rear wheels will do it.
But, power is why I am still conflicting on what to order. The problem is space. We do sometimes 5,000 miles road trips. And you cannot beat minivan in that game. What else to get? Chrysler V6? No thanks, I would keep old gas guzzler. Everything else is FWD.

 

[Accent Abuser]

How come BMW, Mercedes Benz and Audi are so expensive to fix?

Expensive parts, but to add insult to injury they are a pain in the neck to work on and often require expertise and special tools, so the people who really know how to work on them can charge high for labor.

 

[edyvw]

From what I can tell, if the car will go from point "A" to point "B" they're happy with it. It might have a christmas tree dashboard and bottom out on speed bumps and metal on metal noises when they hit the brakes, but as long as it runs, A-OK.

It is perception. And that is fine. But as soon as you say: my BMW (or whatever) is more reliable, it is a problem. I don't have a problem driving BMW and VW and Toyota, and I don't have a problem saying the car I own is POS. Problem is, other people find insulting I said the car I own or owned is POS, bcs. they think it questions their choices.
I might purchase Toyota again, even though I think it is POS. But, some things that I find useful might outweigh my take on that brand.

 

[edyvw]

Expensive parts, but to add insult to injury they are a pain in the neck to work on and often require expertise and special tools, so the people who really know how to work on them can charge high for labor.

Again, parts are no more expensive. Some are, some are not.

 

[drtyler]

Again, parts are no more expensive. Some are, some are not.

Exactly.

I just replaced valve cover gasket and spark plugs on 2009 BMW 328i. The gasket was $20 and spark plugs (Bosch double platinum) were $8 each. The tools required were 1/4" and 3/8" drive socket sets with a few torx and e-torx. Not hard to do, not expensive, and certainly no special tools.

 

[JohnnyG]

They are undersized the way I drive (Mind you I use engine braking). Good to drop kids to school though.

I have to agree with edyvw on this one. I must qualify my remark though with the fact that I've never owned a Toyota.
Coming from a 2008 Cadillac DTS (and a '99 STS before that) and moving to a 2014 MB E350, one of the hardest things to get used to was how much better the brakes were!
I had one of those Ins. Co. tattletales installed at the time and was FOREVER getting dinged on "HARD BRAKING" even though the brakes were just fine and stopping was very smooth. It was mostly that quick response and initial bite that probably fooled the tattletale.

Also, auto braking in the 2014 saved me one time when a ladder fell of a truck on I95 in Charlotte @ 75 mph!
MB had "Pre Safe", so not only did it stop us in time, the seat belts tightened up and the headrests moved forward to keep us from whiplash injury if someone behind us was driving a lesser vehicle.

Some of these systems might be common today, but in 2014 they weren't. So I guess you get what you pay for.

 

[edyvw]

I have to agree with edyvw on this one. I must qualify my remark though with the fact that I've never owned a Toyota.
Coming from a 2008 Cadillac DTS (and a '99 STS before that) and moving to a 2014 MB E350, one of the hardest things to get used to was how much better the brakes were!
I had one of those Ins. Co. tattletales installed at the time and was FOREVER getting dinged on "HARD BRAKING" even though the brakes were just fine and stopping was very smooth. It was mostly that quick response and initial bite that probably fooled the tattletale.

Also, auto braking in the 2014 saved me one time when a ladder fell of a truck on I95 in Charlotte @ 75 mph!
MB had "Pre Safe", so not only did it stop us in time, the seat belts tightened up and the headrests moved forward to keep us from whiplash injury if someone behind us was driving a lesser vehicle.

Some of these systems might be common today, but in 2014 they weren't. So I guess you get what you pay for.

The rotor surface is ridiculously small for 4.700lbs vehicle. 12.9", but has a fairly big hub. They compensated for that with a long pad that fits two-pot calipers. First, pad covers a lot of rotor, which doesn't allow enough cooling. Rear pads a laughable, which makes front brakes work harder.
I think the reason is to lower a. cost and b. cost of tires as 17" wheels can fit those rotors. In reality, 18" wheels should be the minimum size with rotors at least 340mm and larger rear brakes.
I had the same issues with Prado.

 

[doublebase]

I already told you, the average Toyota owner is perfectly fine with a failing brake cylinder, as my friend would say: yeah, it does not bother me, great vehicle though.
I still own Prado, I own VW and BMW, and both were together more reliable than Sienna. Prado on other hand can go reliability-wise together with Yugo 55 I had once. Though I must say, Yugo was squeaking less than Sienna.
The problem with you guys is that you drive the refrigerator every day. You wake up, you open your "General Electric" refrigerator, and drive kids to school, work, etc. Then someone who has a car that is actually nice to drive says it is more reliable and that is something you cannot get over it. You gonna keep driving that, and I will keep driving my BMW, drive kids to school, work, skiing, track it, and still be more reliable.

I think your memory is failing you (probably a BMW owner thing) I already told you I own a Mercedes.

But I’m happy for you. Have fun tracking your BMW after dropping the kids off to school. And make sure you walk that puppy, they need exercise too.

 

[doublebase]

Probably vibration from the front rotors, which is pretty common on the Sienna/Highlander platform cars. They usually need a brake job every 20-30K if you do not like any vibration.

I’ve gone through two sets of rotors on my 2016 Avalon (the second set was covered under warranty from Carquest). I think next time I’ll go with a different brand if rotor, but it has been my biggest gripe with the car. Although the brakes themselves have been excellent in performance and saved me a few times.

 

[wpod]

I have heard from numerous sources that the value of some Ferraris can be affected by how close they are to their timing belt service and if it has been done or not.

I did a timing belt on my friends 328 and it was a huge pain I have never seen such a design. I couldn't imagine the cluster other Ferraris are to work on.

 

[Owen Lucas]

How come BMW, Mercedes Benz and Audi are so expensive to fix?

My take is:

1. Most owners are affluent, time is money, and they will pay what it takes to get their vehicles fixed.

2. Dealers take advantage of owners by using matrix pricing to add a few % over book part prices just because they can, they also add bogus items to invoices. People don't ask and just fork over $$$.

3. German engineering is pretty garbage over the long run, sure there are outliers with some vehicles lasting longer, but on average you don't see many 250k+ newer MBs on the road. German cars may be technically interesting but longevity is not the same as German makes from the 80's and earlier.

Look at resale prices and how much is lost in value compared to Toyota / Lexus / Honda / Acura. Once the warranty is up resale value tanks because everyone knows they cost an arm and a leg to maintain since the dashboard has a tendency to light up like a Christmas tree over stupid things. Mechanics I know despise working on these vehicles but if they want employment, it's what pays the bills.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

I drove it, it is gutless. So, still thinking. AWD was horrid in the previous one, but I use always snow tires. Does its job, won't get stuck in a blizzard on parking lots at ski resorts,. Far cry from VW or BMW, but I use a minivan only when skiing with family anyway, so do not push it. Basically, anything driving rear wheels will do it.
But, power is why I am still conflicting on what to order. The problem is space. We do sometimes 5,000 miles road trips. And you cannot beat minivan in that game. What else to get? Chrysler V6? No thanks, I would keep old gas guzzler. Everything else is FWD.

You had a 3.3L V6?

 

[edyvw]

I think your memory is failing you (probably a BMW owner thing) I already told you I own a Mercedes.

But I’m happy for you. Have fun tracking your BMW after dropping the kids off to school. And make sure you walk that puppy, they need exercise too.

Well, it is not for everyone.