Why are BMW, Mercedes Benz and Audi so expensive to fix?

[BMWTurboDzl]

Water pump price depends on the model. OE pump for my E90 is around $300 and around $200 for OEM.
Water pump replacement in BMW falls in the category of changing spark plugs on 2GR-FE in Toyota in Sienna. Approximately same amount of time, and that is xDrive. RWD is easier.
But, key is perception. Toyota for example wanted from me $315 for donut spar tire 17”. BMW charged donut for my X5 $129 18”. I told guy in Toyota how is it so expensive compared to BMW, he said: well Toyota quality. Mind you, both are Dunlop.
DT gladly sold me Kumho for $90.

Brakes are another favorite of mine. Not only Japanese ilk has absolute POS of brakes, but they charge it same as Europeans does. Here is the thing, no one online ask how is it possible that Toyota charges POS rear pads for Sienna $70 but if BMW charges same for pads that actually stop, it is overpriced.
There is saying: as long as there is sheep, there will be wool.

I think you'd agree that the big difference between the two brands are the frequency of and type of oil leaks. I think this is what gets most people when it comes to BMW at least. IMO historically the repair interval for these items on a BMW is approx 2x vs say Toyota.

For example when I replaced my valve cover gasket at 55k miles I also replaced the valve cover because I didn't want to risk having to pay for the job in 25-30k miles simply because the cover cracked or the PCV diaphragm failed. I imagine this type of repair is unheard of in a Lexus.

Gotta DIY to save money.

 

[JHZR2]

"Premium Luxury"...the manufacturers and dealers are taking full advantage of the financial profile of their typical customer.

Exactly. Fancy dealerships, fancy service facilities, loaner cars, etc. It all adds up and fast.

I don’t think anyone has evidence that a Toyota or Honda vehicle uses magical superior seals, gaskets, switches, etc. many of these things are fairly common design and approach over many vehicles.

On my BMW the abs sensors failed. All four of them, within like 3k miles of each other. And the car only has less than 30k. Biodegradable sensors perhaps?? The old ones came out looking brand new, zero look of being damaged or failed. But they all did. I mean, that IS unsat. But again, fairly common design and approach over many vehicles. So what did BMW influence on the design to get that result?

 

[edyvw]

I think you'd agree that the big difference between the two brands are the frequency of and type of oil leaks. I think this is what gets most people when it comes to BMW at least. IMO historically the repair interval for these items on a BMW is approx 2x vs say Toyota.

For example when I replaced my valve cover gasket at 55k miles I also replaced the valve cover because I didn't want to risk having to pay for the job in 25-30k miles simply because the cover cracked or the PCV diaphragm failed. I imagine this type of repair is unheard of in a Lexus.

Gotta DIY to save money.

The difference IMO is temperature. Generally Japanese engines run cool compared to European. I agree, somewhere you pay for performance and better mpg.
But, Lexus not are immune to oil leaks regardless of temperature.
My N52 at 122k has original VCG. But, i do run N55 oil cooler. So, it will be interesting to see how long it will last with oil temperatures never exceeding 110c unless on track.

 

[edyvw]

Well I guess we could probably go across every brand, every part. Compare apples to oranges, but I don’t know many (outside of BMW owners) that will tell you that the cost to own a BMW to 300,000 miles is LESS than a Toyota. Am I wrong here?

Repair bills are a badge of honor for Mercedes and BMW owners. Whereas NOT having them for Toyota is their badge of honor. I own a Toyota (with that very same 2GRFE engine) and a Mercedes. There really is no comparison between the two in terms of reliability and cost to own.

My Mercedes now has 104,000 miles...my Toyota now has 99,000 miles. I have had ZERO out of pocket (or even warranty repairs) for the Toyota. Meanwhile (get a pen ready), the Mercedes has had every darn pulley and tensioner fail, I’ve had the door panels off (master switch failure), a brake pad sensor snapped right in half (no idea why), front wheel bearing replaced, the sunroof button cover is gone (just fell off one day), same for the fog light covers in front (just fell right off), the rear spring snapped one day (no rust nothing, just decided to break in half), buttons on the dash either don’t light up or the materiel has worn off on them. There’s more, but honestly off hand I can’t remember.

And you know what? I consider myself extremely lucky with this Mercedes. It could be 10x worse. I know that.

I sold my Sienna with 85k as I am not planning any road trips this year and cashed in on used car prices.
At 80k left strut started to leak.
When I bought car at 36k it already had vibrating rotors. Replaced with EBC, good but EBC pads obliterated rotor after 30k. Put Raybestos, vibrating after 10k.
Master cylinder died at 70k.
That is interesting story that shows mentality of Toyota owners. I was trying to figure out why my brakes are soft then hard etc. Asked colleague who has same car if he had these symptoms, he said: “oh yes, but it doesn’t bother me. Great car though.”
Take into consideration that this car was driven 99% of time on hwy. My BMW is DD.
Not to mention squeaks, road noise etc.
And gem: unloading stuff at the hotel in NE, going to Chicago. I pressed close button and lift gate started to go down. My 4yr old pushes bike rack that swings on a side and lift gate hits rack. Here is result and $3,200 quote from Toyota. My friend Rusty aligned gate but it could not close pressing button anymore. It is widely known issue which Toyota, as always blames drivers and not admitting POS quality. Same issue on new Sienna/HL.

 

[gman2304]

My daughter-in-law’s 2012 Sienna is approaching 225,000 miles and has been basically trouble free for 10 years. In 2016 my son and his family took a 5 week road trip from N.C. to Vancouver B.C. and many points in between. He texted me a pic of the outside temp gauge showing 116* F while crossing Death Valley and his engine temp gauge was showing normal at 75 mph. Of course YMMV but his wife’s Sienna and his 2013 Tundra have been stellar. Can’t comment on the cost of parts or repairs for my wife’s 2013 Lexus es350. Nothing has broken….yet.

 

[gman2304]

And gem: unloading stuff at the hotel in NE, going to Chicago. I pressed close button and lift gate started to go down. My 4yr old pushes bike rack that swings on a side and lift gate hits rack. Here is result and $3,200 quote from Toyota. My friend Rusty aligned gate but it could not close pressing button anymore. It is widely known issue which Toyota, as always blames drivers and not admitting POS quality. Same issue on new Sienna/HL.

Respectfully: How is this Toyota’s fault, or am I missing something?

 

[Wolf359]

And gem: unloading stuff at the hotel in NE, going to Chicago. I pressed close button and lift gate started to go down. My 4yr old pushes bike rack that swings on a side and lift gate hits rack. Here is result and $3,200 quote from Toyota. My friend Rusty aligned gate but it could not close pressing button anymore. It is widely known issue which Toyota, as always blames drivers and not admitting POS quality. Same issue on new Sienna/HL.

I have the power trunk closer on my Mercedes E-350. If it detects that it's hit something like you have too much stuff sticking out of the trunk, it pops back up. A proper design requires a bit more work. They also charge extra for folding rear seats, but the seat cushions actually flip up so you can lower the back more and if you want, you can remove the seat cushions for more room.

 

[doublebase]

I sold my Sienna with 85k as I am not planning any road trips this year and cashed in on used car prices.
At 80k left strut started to leak.
When I bought car at 36k it already had vibrating rotors. Replaced with EBC, good but EBC pads obliterated rotor after 30k. Put Raybestos, vibrating after 10k.
Master cylinder died at 70k.
That is interesting story that shows mentality of Toyota owners. I was trying to figure out why my brakes are soft then hard etc. Asked colleague who has same car if he had these symptoms, he said: “oh yes, but it doesn’t bother me. Great car though.”
Take into consideration that this car was driven 99% of time on hwy. My BMW is DD.
Not to mention squeaks, road noise etc.
And gem: unloading stuff at the hotel in NE, going to Chicago. I pressed close button and lift gate started to go down. My 4yr old pushes bike rack that swings on a side and lift gate hits rack. Here is result and $3,200 quote from Toyota. My friend Rusty aligned gate but it could not close pressing button anymore. It is widely known issue which Toyota, as always blames drivers and not admitting POS quality. Same issue on new Sienna/HL.
View attachment 105431

I remember this story now, you posted a thread on here about this a while back.

I think every car company across their brands have their faults/issues. Some are repeated, some are fixed, and some never happen. I think it takes some research and experience to determine what the best vehicles are, what you consider a “best vehicle”, and the luck you have when buying used.

I’ve been in the car business for 30 plus years now, I’ve seen some things, I’ve worked on every brand. I’ve met all the different types of owners. In that time frame (30 plus years) Toyota has been the best brand I’ve seen. But “best” for ME, is not best for everyone. I’m only going off of reliability. That’s it. Not performance, looks, design, prestige, whatever. Just reliability. Honda was close for a long time, but the transmission fiascos of the 1998-2007ish vehicles were a serious downer in my book. That was a problem. Then they had their oil consumption with their cylinder deactivation after that. I think Honda is probably back on track but they took a hit. Toyota has had their issues here and there as well but I can honestly say that I hardly ever see Toyota problems large scale - they either fix it, replace it, improve it, or it doesn’t happen at all. And in this business that’s rare. You don’t see that type of stuff. I’m not saying they’re perfect, none of these manufacturers are. And I think they are a BORING CAR, but for reliability? I don’t think anyone can touch them.

But I’d rather drive a BMW, they’re faster, they look better (in my opinion), the handle better, they’re probably quieter, they have more prestige, better paint and would probably be a joy to own. But I drive 25,000 miles a year and I do not want a car that I don’t think can go 250,000-300,000 with minimal repairs. And I don’t care about brake rotor/pad prices. They’re not deal breakers. I’m talking major component failure, electrical issues, and intricate repair procedures specific to European vehicles (which require specialty tools)p occasionally). I can’t be bothered with that stuff in a daily driver anymore.

 

[doublebase]

My daughter-in-law’s 2012 Sienna is approaching 225,000 miles and has been basically trouble free for 10 years. In 2016 my son and his family took a 5 week road trip from N.C. to Vancouver B.C. and many points in between. He texted me a pic of the outside temp gauge showing 116* F while crossing Death Valley and his engine temp gauge was showing normal at 75 mph. Of course YMMV but his wife’s Sienna and his 2013 Tundra have been stellar. Can’t comment on the cost of parts or repairs for my wife’s 2013 Lexus es350. Nothing has broken….yet.

I essentially have the same car as that Lexus ES350 (a 2016 Avalon) and believe me you’re going to be a waiting a long long time before you’ll be able to comment on the cost of repairs, because that thing is one of the most reliable cars Toyota has ever built.

I’m coming off ownership of a Lexus LS460...great car, but it was a high end flagship and that thing was expensive to own. Not compared to a Mercedes or BMW, but compared to a Toyota it was just a different animal. Glad to be back into something more reliable/practical (although I do miss that LS460 a little bit).

 

[edyvw]

Respectfully: How is this Toyota’s fault, or am I missing something?

Usually when trunk hits something on other cars bill is not $3,200. And it happens all the time.

 

[edyvw]

I remember this story now, you posted a thread on here about this a while back.

I think every car company across their brands have their faults/issues. Some are repeated, some are fixed, and some never happen. I think it takes some research and experience to determine what the best vehicles are, what you consider a “best vehicle”, and the luck you have when buying used.

I’ve been in the car business for 30 plus years now, I’ve seen some things, I’ve worked on every brand. I’ve met all the different types of owners. In that time frame (30 plus years) Toyota has been the best brand I’ve seen. But “best” for ME, is not best for everyone. I’m only going off of reliability. That’s it. Not performance, looks, design, prestige, whatever. Just reliability. Honda was close for a long time, but the transmission fiascos of the 1998-2007ish vehicles were a serious downer in my book. That was a problem. Then they had their oil consumption with their cylinder deactivation after that. I think Honda is probably back on track but they took a hit. Toyota has had their issues here and there as well but I can honestly say that I hardly ever see Toyota problems large scale - they either fix it, replace it, improve it, or it doesn’t happen at all. And in this business that’s rare. You don’t see that type of stuff. I’m not saying they’re perfect, none of these manufacturers are. And I think they are a BORING CAR, but for reliability? I don’t think anyone can touch them.

But I’d rather drive a BMW, they’re faster, they look better (in my opinion), the handle better, they’re probably quieter, they have more prestige, better paint and would probably be a joy to own. But I drive 25,000 miles a year and I do not want a car that I don’t think can go 250,000-300,000 with minimal repairs. And I don’t care about brake rotor/pad prices. They’re not deal breakers. I’m talking major component failure, electrical issues, and intricate repair procedures specific to European vehicles (which require specialty tools)p occasionally). I can’t be bothered with that stuff in a daily driver anymore.

What are you talking about improving. Toyota is absolutely the worst company when it comes to acknowledging issues. This trunk issue is spanning to 2nd generation Sienna.
Debacle with 8 speed Aisin transmission was on owners. My friend had 37 visits to dealership with HL and in the end they offered him to buy car from him at market value. In the end Toyota never acknowledged issue it just patched problems and if you got caught in it, oh well.
Take into consideration I have Land Crusier Prado in Europe. Absolute junk if a vehicle. Prime example what POS are they when things have to get complicated (turbo).
I will probably get new hybrid Sienna bcs. practicality (space), mpg. But it ain’t going to be DD. I am afraid I might brake it in half.

 

[gman2304]

will probably get new hybrid Sienna bcs. practicality (space), mpg. But it ain’t going to be DD. I am afraid I might brake it in half.

K………… Assuming you’re aware that other manufacturers build mini vans……

 

[edyvw]

K…………

One thing that nothing beats minivan is practicality, and I don’t want to give up that as we usually do long road trips. And AWD+mpg is good combo on new one. Old one had AWD but driving experience definitely didn’t justify gas guzzling behavior. But, might go with Atlas turbo. Will see in few months.

 

[IndyIan]

Actually, dealers prices went down substantially. At least BMW is trying to get people away from indy’s. Some remote dealerships still charge arms and leg, but where there is competition, no. I changed fuel pump gasket few weeks ago and I got it at dealership for $18, cheaper than anything online even aftermarket ones.

So your car was leaking fuel? or just vapors? Sure it was a $18 part and a couple hours of messing around for you, but taking the car to a dealer for that would be what? $3-400?
Anyways, in my experience, gaskets and such have only really failed on my Neon. Our Nissan, Suzuki, Honda, Ford and Subaru so far don't have these little drivetrain related issues very often if at all? I guess the focus has had a couple parts that shouldn't really fail either, like the intake runner tumbler flaps, but just wiring them in open position has been the free fix.
Anyways, for sure German car ownership can vary, from pretty reasonable for a guy like you, to customers of our resident BMW mechanic who bangs out 4-5 digit repair bills pretty often!

 

[Koainn]

My parents were old world immigrants from eastern europe so they only owned german cars as they viewed them to be the best even if they never were LOL.

The reason mercedes and bmw have plastic underbody splashguards from the front to the rear bumper is to prevent the oil leaks from staining ones driveways

I'm a japanese car buyer and my current one is an infiniti which uses RTV instead of gaskets in and around the engine so theres no oil leaks in 90k miles. The only leaking Ive had with this car was antifreeze from a weak hose clamp.

My 2000 maxima and my 07 acura tl never leaked oil anywhere

 

[doublebase]

What are you talking about improving. Toyota is absolutely the worst company when it comes to acknowledging issues. This trunk issue is spanning to 2nd generation Sienna.
Debacle with 8 speed Aisin transmission was on owners. My friend had 37 visits to dealership with HL and in the end they offered him to buy car from him at market value. In the end Toyota never acknowledged issue it just patched problems and if you got caught in it, oh well.
Take into consideration I have Land Crusier Prado in Europe. Absolute junk if a vehicle. Prime example what POS are they when things have to get complicated (turbo).
I will probably get new hybrid Sienna bcs. practicality (space), mpg. But it ain’t going to be DD. I am afraid I might brake it in half.

See, this is difficult because you experienced these things, and you are in THAT bubble, and just won’t be able to get out of it. I get it. It’s you in a microcosm and there’s no getting out.

Meanwhile Toyota/Lexus is rated number 1-5 in reliability year after year, but you just can’t grasp that. Nor can you grasp other owners opinions or people that work in the industry. But here’s some perspective anyway.

https://www.carmax.com/articles/most-reliable-car-brands

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/consumer-reports-lexus-makes-the-most-reliable-cars-lincoln-the-least/

https://www.osv.ltd.uk/are-toyota-reliable/

But you go ahead and keep saying Toyota is the “worst company” when it comes to acknowledging issues. Or keep calling them “pieces of junk” or “POS”. My lord!! You are off the hinges.

Know what? Look on the bright side, at least BMW had the “free puppy with purchase campaign”. So you can have company walking home after you break down.

 

[edyvw]

So your car was leaking fuel? or just vapors? Sure it was a $18 part and a couple hours of messing around for you, but taking the car to a dealer for that would be what? $3-400?
Anyways, in my experience, gaskets and such have only really failed on my Neon. Our Nissan, Suzuki, Honda, Ford and Subaru so far don't have these little drivetrain related issues very often if at all? I guess the focus has had a couple parts that shouldn't really fail either, like the intake runner tumbler flaps, but just wiring them in open position has been the free fix.
Anyways, for sure German car ownership can vary, from pretty reasonable for a guy like you, to customers of our resident BMW mechanic who bangs out 4-5 digit repair bills pretty often!

Vapor.
Only smells outside in these cases.
30min work, including disassembling the child seat and putting it back.

 

[edyvw]

See, this is difficult because you experienced these things, and you are in THAT bubble, and just won’t be able to get out of it. I get it. It’s you in a microcosm and there’s no getting out.

Meanwhile Toyota/Lexus is rated number 1-5 in reliability year after year, but you just can’t grasp that. Nor can you grasp other owners opinions or people that work in the industry. But here’s some perspective anyway.

https://www.carmax.com/articles/most-reliable-car-brands

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/consumer-reports-lexus-makes-the-most-reliable-cars-lincoln-the-least/

https://www.osv.ltd.uk/are-toyota-reliable/

But you go ahead and keep saying Toyota is the “worst company” when it comes to acknowledging issues. Or keep calling them “pieces of junk” or “POS”. My lord!! You are off the hinges.

Know what? Look on the bright side, at least BMW had the “free puppy with purchase campaign”. So you can have company walking home after you break down.

I already told you, the average Toyota owner is perfectly fine with a failing brake cylinder, as my friend would say: yeah, it does not bother me, great vehicle though.
I still own Prado, I own VW and BMW, and both were together more reliable than Sienna. Prado on other hand can go reliability-wise together with Yugo 55 I had once. Though I must say, Yugo was squeaking less than Sienna.
The problem with you guys is that you drive the refrigerator every day. You wake up, you open your "General Electric" refrigerator, and drive kids to school, work, etc. Then someone who has a car that is actually nice to drive says it is more reliable and that is something you cannot get over it. You gonna keep driving that, and I will keep driving my BMW, drive kids to school, work, skiing, track it, and still be more reliable.

 

[edyvw]

My parents were old world immigrants from eastern europe so they only owned german cars as they viewed them to be the best even if they never were LOL.

The reason mercedes and bmw have plastic underbody splashguards from the front to the rear bumper is to prevent the oil leaks from staining ones driveways

I'm a japanese car buyer and my current one is an infiniti which uses RTV instead of gaskets in and around the engine so theres no oil leaks in 90k miles. The only leaking Ive had with this car was antifreeze from a weak hose clamp.

My 2000 maxima and my 07 acura tl never leaked oil anywhere

Better than positioning oil filter at the bottom of an engine like Toyota, and NOT providing a splash guard. Then, when you decide to go bike somewhere in some national park and have to get on the dirt road, you wonder whether you will leave your filter behind, or oil pan.

 

[lawrencerd]

I think it's a lot to do with the quality/price of servicing options in your local area. In the past I somewhat excused this but the more I have thought about it, it is the brand's responsibility to an extent to facilitate good service for the customers.

Whether by simpler designs or making things easier to service, or making parts more available and affordable (key aspect: many of the euro parts I've needed are only available "as an assembly" which can make things uneconomical to repair, and quick. It's really a failure of the manufacturer at the end of the day.

Of course, you're still going to have die-hards that defend everything they do. So they're obviously doing some aspects very right that resonates with some people. All brands have pros and cons.