Who has had problem with FRAM personally
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Can you be a little more specific as to how exaclty "failed"? I for one would like to know.
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
FDS runs rampant yet again.
So even when you see 1st hand a FRam that fails and even have one damage your engine you suffer from FDS? Maybe FDS should actually stand for Fram Defender Syndrome and you sir have it.
I'm not a sir, I work for a living.
Was that post addressed to you? No. It was a general comment on what I think is largely irrational group-think which I, in an attempt at humor, call "FDS" or "Fram Derangement Syndrome." I'm sorry you took it personally. But you chose to do so. Well, the Constitution does not infringe upon your right to choose to be insulted.
Not sure how I would react to an oil filter destroying my engine. I'd like to think I'd be a little more rational about it than you are being but I garron-darn-tee I'd be at Fram's door with a repair bill in one hand and the offending oil filter in the other demanding some satisfaction.
As to my defending Fram, I'm not. I'm railing at irrational group-think. I prefer to make a decision based on provable facts and not unprovable anecdotes and ignorant statements. And that is not directed at you but to those, "Yeah my brother's girlfriend's uncle told me the buddy of a guy where he works told him that Fram's were bad." posts, or the endless startup noise posts.
There are pros and cons to all filters and I'm largely in agreement that there are a fair number of cons to the low end Frams when compared to some others in the same price range. I don't think they are inherently a "disaster" from a design standpoint. There are too many of them out there functioning adequately to say that. The more filters you sell, the more failures will be seen, even if the percentage of filters that fail is no higher than anyone else in the industry.
Bottom line, since it's become trendy to bash Fram, the burden of proof for me to take some of these claims seriously must be that much higher to get past my bovine scatology detector.
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
FDS runs rampant yet again.
So even when you see 1st hand a FRam that fails and even have one damage your engine you suffer from FDS? Maybe FDS should actually stand for Fram Defender Syndrome and you sir have it.
I'm not a sir, I work for a living.
Was that post addressed to you? No. It was a general comment on what I think is largely irrational group-think which I, in an attempt at humor, call "FDS" or "Fram Derangement Syndrome." I'm sorry you took it personally. But you chose to do so. Well, the Constitution does not infringe upon your right to choose to be insulted.
Not sure how I would react to an oil filter destroying my engine. I'd like to think I'd be a little more rational about it than you are being but I garron-darn-tee I'd be at Fram's door with a repair bill in one hand and the offending oil filter in the other demanding some satisfaction.
As to my defending Fram, I'm not. I'm railing at irrational group-think. I prefer to make a decision based on provable facts and not unprovable anecdotes and ignorant statements. And that is not directed at you but to those, "Yeah my brother's girlfriend's uncle told me the buddy of a guy where he works told him that Fram's were bad." posts, or the endless startup noise posts.
There are pros and cons to all filters and I'm largely in agreement that there are a fair number of cons to the low end Frams when compared to some others in the same price range. I don't think they are inherently a "disaster" from a design standpoint. There are too many of them out there functioning adequately to say that. The more filters you sell, the more failures will be seen, even if the percentage of filters that fail is no higher than anyone else in the industry.
Bottom line, since it's become trendy to bash Fram, the burden of proof for me to take some of these claims seriously must be that much higher to get past my bovine scatology detector.
Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Tapping noise at startup was my problem. Solved with other brands.
Same here. Only filter that ever did that on that particular car.
Same here...no other brand did that. I also watched a Fram on my friend's truck split on startup...fortunately, he shut it down with no damage.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Tapping noise at startup was my problem. Solved with other brands.
Same here. Only filter that ever did that on that particular car.
Same here...no other brand did that. I also watched a Fram on my friend's truck split on startup...fortunately, he shut it down with no damage.
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Originally Posted By: cchase
Even if a Fram blows out the filter media, so what? You have unfiltered oil passing through the engine?
The danger of blown-out media is what it can plug up downstream
YUP!
Fram replaced some Cummins 5.9's because of that!
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Originally Posted By: cchase
Even if a Fram blows out the filter media, so what? You have unfiltered oil passing through the engine?
The danger of blown-out media is what it can plug up downstream
YUP!
Fram replaced some Cummins 5.9's because of that!
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Originally Posted By: cchase
Even if a Fram blows out the filter media, so what? You have unfiltered oil passing through the engine?
The danger of blown-out media is what it can plug up downstream
YUP!
Fram replaced some Cummins 5.9's because of that!
Which is why my "B.ovine S.catology" detector went off when Motorking said that NO engines had been replaced by Fram due to filter failure-I'm sure that even Purolator has had 1 or 2 failures that took out an engine.
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Originally Posted By: cchase
Even if a Fram blows out the filter media, so what? You have unfiltered oil passing through the engine?
The danger of blown-out media is what it can plug up downstream
YUP!
Fram replaced some Cummins 5.9's because of that!
Which is why my "B.ovine S.catology" detector went off when Motorking said that NO engines had been replaced by Fram due to filter failure-I'm sure that even Purolator has had 1 or 2 failures that took out an engine.
A friend at work had his engine completely replaced by Champ Labs. It happens. They were really good to him about it though, all they wanted was the filter from him, and they came back and flat out said it was defective, and replaced his engine.
It was a media blow out that got into the engine and killed it kind of deal. I assume it was an e-core but I did not get to see the filter before he sent it to them.
It was a media blow out that got into the engine and killed it kind of deal. I assume it was an e-core but I did not get to see the filter before he sent it to them.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
A friend at work had his engine completely replaced by Champ Labs. It happens. They were really good to him about it though, all they wanted was the filter from him, and they came back and flat out said it was defective, and replaced his engine.
It was a media blow out that got into the engine and killed it kind of deal. I assume it was an e-core but I did not get to see the filter before he sent it to them.
Which is probably why the SuperTech E-Core filters went away. A couple of claims again the corporation of WM and they probably washed their hands of the plastic cage.
A friend at work had his engine completely replaced by Champ Labs. It happens. They were really good to him about it though, all they wanted was the filter from him, and they came back and flat out said it was defective, and replaced his engine.
It was a media blow out that got into the engine and killed it kind of deal. I assume it was an e-core but I did not get to see the filter before he sent it to them.
Which is probably why the SuperTech E-Core filters went away. A couple of claims again the corporation of WM and they probably washed their hands of the plastic cage.
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Originally Posted By: cchase
Even if a Fram blows out the filter media, so what? You have unfiltered oil passing through the engine?
The danger of blown-out media is what it can plug up downstream-such as piston underside oil squirter nozzles, oil galleries (especially to turbos & VVT-i/VCT units). IMO, the danger presented by the E-core plastic cage is much greater than the standard Fram Extra Guard/"OCOD" design-and unfortunately filters are appearing (Fram TLE, larger Valucrafts & Microguards) that have the worst of both worlds now that Fram & Champ have combined.
On an engine with a bypass in the block, the chances of blowing out filter media seems unlikely. Additionally, as you mention the E-core cage seems far more likely to blow media out. Having taken apart multiple OCOD, I'm not sure how media would get anywhere even if it did "blow out".
Originally Posted By: cchase
Even if a Fram blows out the filter media, so what? You have unfiltered oil passing through the engine?
The danger of blown-out media is what it can plug up downstream-such as piston underside oil squirter nozzles, oil galleries (especially to turbos & VVT-i/VCT units). IMO, the danger presented by the E-core plastic cage is much greater than the standard Fram Extra Guard/"OCOD" design-and unfortunately filters are appearing (Fram TLE, larger Valucrafts & Microguards) that have the worst of both worlds now that Fram & Champ have combined.
On an engine with a bypass in the block, the chances of blowing out filter media seems unlikely. Additionally, as you mention the E-core cage seems far more likely to blow media out. Having taken apart multiple OCOD, I'm not sure how media would get anywhere even if it did "blow out".
Originally Posted By: Kruse
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
A friend at work had his engine completely replaced by Champ Labs. It happens. They were really good to him about it though, all they wanted was the filter from him, and they came back and flat out said it was defective, and replaced his engine.
It was a media blow out that got into the engine and killed it kind of deal. I assume it was an e-core but I did not get to see the filter before he sent it to them.
Which is probably why the SuperTech E-Core filters went away. A couple of claims again the corporation of WM and they probably washed their hands of the plastic cage.
Would that be the Plastic Cage Of Death? Or PCOD? So let it be written. So let it be done. I'm giving you the credit for PCOD. Congrats.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
A friend at work had his engine completely replaced by Champ Labs. It happens. They were really good to him about it though, all they wanted was the filter from him, and they came back and flat out said it was defective, and replaced his engine.
It was a media blow out that got into the engine and killed it kind of deal. I assume it was an e-core but I did not get to see the filter before he sent it to them.
Which is probably why the SuperTech E-Core filters went away. A couple of claims again the corporation of WM and they probably washed their hands of the plastic cage.
Would that be the Plastic Cage Of Death? Or PCOD? So let it be written. So let it be done. I'm giving you the credit for PCOD. Congrats.
Never had a problem with a Fram, but that's because I don't buy them.
Originally Posted By: cchase
On an engine with a bypass in the block, the chances of blowing out filter media seems unlikely.
Hard to say ... it all depends on if the bypass valve can handle the bypass volume, regardless if the bypass valve is in the engine block or in the filter. If there is a major event (ie, oil pump regulator sticks) that casuses the bypass valve to open, then the valve needs to be able to handle the flow or else there will be a pretty high delat-P across the media which could cause a blow-out.
On an engine with a bypass in the block, the chances of blowing out filter media seems unlikely.
Hard to say ... it all depends on if the bypass valve can handle the bypass volume, regardless if the bypass valve is in the engine block or in the filter. If there is a major event (ie, oil pump regulator sticks) that casuses the bypass valve to open, then the valve needs to be able to handle the flow or else there will be a pretty high delat-P across the media which could cause a blow-out.
I guess I am considered a racist. An oil filter color racist!
It's the Orange color of the filter.
I would definitely use an Ultra.
It's the Orange color of the filter.
I would definitely use an Ultra.
I have used Fram filters for decades and never one issue.
Originally Posted By: SS1970chrysler
I use a PH-25 on my '62 Buick most of the time, no troubles yet. The same filter on my '77 Riviera can be tappy at times. Angle of mount is around 60 deg on that one.
Update- replaced the PH-25 on my '77 Riviera with a Purolater FL-30005 without changing the oil or pre-filling it. Knocks were instantly gone on that first cold start. Definitely ADBV failure. it sounds like new starting it now.
Even with the 20w-50 that I have in it.
I use a PH-25 on my '62 Buick most of the time, no troubles yet. The same filter on my '77 Riviera can be tappy at times. Angle of mount is around 60 deg on that one.
Update- replaced the PH-25 on my '77 Riviera with a Purolater FL-30005 without changing the oil or pre-filling it. Knocks were instantly gone on that first cold start. Definitely ADBV failure. it sounds like new starting it now.
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I'm not a fan of fram, however I used to use them exclusively. This was before the black grip stuff was put onto every single can.
The black "grip" was a complete joke to me, it did nothing at all to help with anything, except to have my filter wrench not fit.
I can honestly say 1 time my 2.8L Firebird motor had valve noise for about 5 minutes when I had a fram OCOD on. back in 1992 there was no BITOG or forums. Not even BBS's had this type of forum.
I ran pyroil motor flush through the engine (with my synthetic oil with only 600 miles on it) and changed the filter and oil again. the valves were quiet, but I couldn't say if it was the filter or not.
My beef with fram boils down to construction.
carboard endcaps, a weak can, my carpal tunnel'd hands can dent a fram can. the mediocre ADBV, barely nitrile. Plus the lack of pleats. A Wix or Purolator looks to have double the fram.
So I pay $1 more for a filter that won't leave black dust on my hands, won't crush under pressure from a filter wrench, and I know it will last 7500 miles and I know the can is strong.
Appearances sell more than colors.
I now cut my filters open just to look. the fram ones I cut open from friends cars, they're ok, they look like they were crushed in that can. but I haven't yet seen the fram media split apart at the end caps.
yes, fram makes millions of filters and sells them.
Just because they have a capacity to make and sell, doesn't mean I personally will buy one, nor will I recommend one.
the quality of the can just feels cheesy to me, and the fact that fram has gone out of their way to introduce youtube video's of pressure tests and their 'quality' controls, and tours of the factories. No other mfgr has done this, not even champion labs with their mediocre e-core filter.
fram IMHO is doing a damage control which means they know something "could" happen with their orange can.
Their Ultra filter is the filter that is highly regarded.
but at $10, why should I pay that much when $4 less I can get a Wix or Purolator?
The black "grip" was a complete joke to me, it did nothing at all to help with anything, except to have my filter wrench not fit.
I can honestly say 1 time my 2.8L Firebird motor had valve noise for about 5 minutes when I had a fram OCOD on. back in 1992 there was no BITOG or forums. Not even BBS's had this type of forum.
I ran pyroil motor flush through the engine (with my synthetic oil with only 600 miles on it) and changed the filter and oil again. the valves were quiet, but I couldn't say if it was the filter or not.
My beef with fram boils down to construction.
carboard endcaps, a weak can, my carpal tunnel'd hands can dent a fram can. the mediocre ADBV, barely nitrile. Plus the lack of pleats. A Wix or Purolator looks to have double the fram.
So I pay $1 more for a filter that won't leave black dust on my hands, won't crush under pressure from a filter wrench, and I know it will last 7500 miles and I know the can is strong.
Appearances sell more than colors.
I now cut my filters open just to look. the fram ones I cut open from friends cars, they're ok, they look like they were crushed in that can. but I haven't yet seen the fram media split apart at the end caps.
yes, fram makes millions of filters and sells them.
Just because they have a capacity to make and sell, doesn't mean I personally will buy one, nor will I recommend one.
the quality of the can just feels cheesy to me, and the fact that fram has gone out of their way to introduce youtube video's of pressure tests and their 'quality' controls, and tours of the factories. No other mfgr has done this, not even champion labs with their mediocre e-core filter.
fram IMHO is doing a damage control which means they know something "could" happen with their orange can.
Their Ultra filter is the filter that is highly regarded.
but at $10, why should I pay that much when $4 less I can get a Wix or Purolator?
Originally Posted By: EricF
Their Ultra filter is the filter that is highly regarded.
but at $10, why should I pay that much when $4 less I can get a Wix or Purolator?
The Ultra is rated at 15K OCI, so if you're into using the same filter for 2 OCIs (say 2 times 5K or 7.5K OCIs), then the filter cost would be ~$5 per OCI.
The Ultra is a nice filter though ... up there in performance and construction with other filters that are $10 or more.
Their Ultra filter is the filter that is highly regarded.
but at $10, why should I pay that much when $4 less I can get a Wix or Purolator?
The Ultra is rated at 15K OCI, so if you're into using the same filter for 2 OCIs (say 2 times 5K or 7.5K OCIs), then the filter cost would be ~$5 per OCI.
The Ultra is a nice filter though ... up there in performance and construction with other filters that are $10 or more.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: EricF
Their Ultra filter is the filter that is highly regarded.
but at $10, why should I pay that much when $4 less I can get a Wix or Purolator?
The Ultra is rated at 15K OCI, so if you're into using the same filter for 2 OCIs (say 2 times 5K or 7.5K OCIs), then the filter cost would be ~$5 per OCI.
The Ultra is a nice filter though ... up there in performance and construction with other filters that are $10 or more.
Go to Ebay and get 6 for $7 each, shipping incl. Just received mine today that I ordered last week.
Originally Posted By: EricF
Their Ultra filter is the filter that is highly regarded.
but at $10, why should I pay that much when $4 less I can get a Wix or Purolator?
The Ultra is rated at 15K OCI, so if you're into using the same filter for 2 OCIs (say 2 times 5K or 7.5K OCIs), then the filter cost would be ~$5 per OCI.
The Ultra is a nice filter though ... up there in performance and construction with other filters that are $10 or more.
Go to Ebay and get 6 for $7 each, shipping incl. Just received mine today that I ordered last week.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Tapping noise at startup was my problem. Solved with other brands.
Me too!
Tapping noise at startup was my problem. Solved with other brands.
Me too!
31 years ago I had an OCOD spring a leak at the seam 700+ miles from home.
Luckily spotted it at the far end of a road trip and only lost ~1/2qt.
Never used them since.
Luckily spotted it at the far end of a road trip and only lost ~1/2qt.
Never used them since.
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