proof that fram is inferior

[Gary Allan]

Autodarken: I'm not an admin. I'm a sight sponsor/supporter. Now again, the standard Fram performs adequately for just about any car, under any level of service. That, however, has to be qualified to how much a filter will alter the average person's ownership experience over its typical duration. Will a Fram destroy your engine? Absolutely not. Will the use of another filter enhance your ownership experience? Probably not to the level that you can detect it. I would only offer that one has to ask why Fram has this distinction of economy ..while the entire industry chooses not to employ such techniques of manufacturing. They didn't grow up in a vacuum ..they have advanced business planners and engineers. Brilliant people, I'm sure.

So, there's nothing wrong with a standard Fram as far as it doing its job to minimum standards. It only comes down to bang for your buck. Those who choose to pay (typically) more for the cheapest product on the market can do so without fear ..but I imagine if I offered you a low ball econo-box for the price of a more favored intermediate ..that you would choose the one with more robust features ...whether or not those features enhanced your driving experience in terms of "needs".

The standard orange can would have to be sold at about $1.50 for me to perceive it as being "value based" in its price. It's typically three times that much. Even at that price, I'd still reach for a SuperTech @ $2.4x.

Even if they were free, they would only see a beater that got oil changes based on "as needed" as opposed to "maintaining for the long haul" in the amount that I put into it over its expected time line in my usage.

So, by all means, use a Fram and sleep well at night ..but I will seek value in the $$ that I spend ...and that's just an oxymoron when joined with the word Fram.

 

[DC84]

Maybe we should debate if Coke is insuperior to house brand cola's next ??? Frams will work and so will the other 1000 filters on the market. Every brand will have a failure from time to time its just how the business goes. Is it just me or has Fram in a way taking the negative image that pennzoil was labeled with for years ... "its gonna kill your engine"

 

[Gary Allan]

No. The only real problem that I've heard of is that Cummins had some ban on Frams at one point. There, allegedly, they failed with high frequency causing damage due to collapse. Frams work. They're just more marketing than they are of substance. There's no justification for their price ..at any level that they offer ..at least in terms of content or performance. The money isn't in the material of the filter. It's in the mass media force of their marketing. It can be trumped by many other manufacturers for typically much less.

Now for most, it would be the difference between a steel or copper paper clip as opposed to a titanium ..all do the same job ..at least at minimum standards...except Fram charges titanium prices for their low ball offerings ..and go up from there.

 

[blackdiamond]

Based on comments on this thread and others, I'm thinking that running a Fram filter and Mobil 1 oil would be the perfect combo for someone wanting to pay the most for the least.


Disclaimer: I have never used a Fram so I have no real opinion and I have been happy with my Mobil 1 experience so far.

 

[tiger8866]

Interesting thread, I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but I would have to side with the fact that Fram filters perform as advistized. Think about it, if Fram filters really are so terrible, why haven't they been sued out of business?

 

[Auto-Union]

What about the Fram XG? Screen-over the entire media! My $5 Fram TG offers slilcone ADBV, Screen-over BPV, mixed media, PTFE gasket and a solid can with grip texture. What other $5 filter offers all that?

 

[T-Keith]

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What about the Fram XG? Screen-over the entire media! My $5 Fram TG offers silicone ADBV, Screen-over BPV, mixed media, PTFE gasket and a solid can with grip texture. What other $5 filter offers all that?

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Mixed media, PTFE gasket - Pure 1
Screen over bypass - worthless feature, filter is rarely in bypass and there shouldn't be any particles that big that haven't already reeked havoc on the oil pump
Silicone ADBV - still the same poor design that no one else offers.

Sorry, the XG is just a gussied up Fram, that has all the same faults and a few frivolous features.

This is turning into the normal Fram post, which we have enough of already. All of this has been covered, let's face it: Fram fans are stubborn and so are Purolator fans, Wix fans, ect ect.

 

[daman]

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Mixed media, PTFE gasket - Pure 1
Screen over bypass - worthless feature, filter is rarely in bypass and there shouldn't be any particles that big that haven't already reeked havoc on the oil pump
Silicone ADBV - still the same poor design that no one else offers.

Sorry, the XG is just a gussied up Fram, that has all the same faults and a few frivolous features.

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Well said

........

 

[Tang419]

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I had a Fram collapse and cause lack of oil and therefore scarred by cam bearings so it cost me about $1000.00 to rebuild. I will never use a fram again

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Likewise. Was headed down the road in my '92 GT Mustang, when out of the blue the oil pressure just dropped to nothing and the engine started to rattle. Lucky enough, I was in town, so I just coasted it into a parking lot. I didnt have to rebuild though.

 

[Mokanic]

I've seen so many start-up rattles caused by the junky orange can filters that I can't remember them all. The 22R Toyota engine and the Nissan Z24 are two engines that the timing chains will suffer a short life span using Fram trash on them. It is without a doubt the poorest excuse for a filter on the market. Most would be better off just stuffing some toilet paper in a empty beer can and shoving that on your engine(at least you didn't pay money for it).
I have personally seen cars come in with start-up rattle be cured by doing nothing other than replacing the Fram can on the side of the engine with a decent filter. I have also personally seen Fram buy two engines due to filter collapse back in my dealership days so yes,they will fail. I have never seen any other brand of filter do that. Perhaps they have but I have never heard of it happening.
If Fram spent a 1/4 of their marketing money on quality filter construction they would have the best filter going. I'm not lifting up any other particular brand of filter(but it is temping). I just finished rebuilding a V-6 engine for a customer and I included a 3yr unlimited mileage warranty on the engine. In the contract he agreed to not use any Fram filters on the engine during the warranty period. Would it hold in court? Probably not, but at least he left knowing my feeling on the death can filter and I doubt he'll risk the trouble of taking me to court for using one.
In most cases you get what you pay for but in the case of a Fram oil filter if you paid anything for it you just got popped. Oh, the don't kiss you first either!

 

[Gary Allan]

In all fairness, I would think that Fram would have more failures just due to the higher frequency of use by the public. In your case, with your HO engine, the problem apparently was really a problem.

This isn't the first time for this. The Boss 302 and the Z28 were blowing them up stock in the early 70's. I was told that's why the HP line came about. I never confirmed when the HP line came into being ..so it could have been all bee-ess. Not the blowing up of stock Frams. That I've seen. Just the inference that the HP line was created to cope with it.

 

[Mokanic]

The photos of the Fram that had collapsed was/is a common problem. Sometimes the failure causes no engine damage and then sometimes it does. I prefer not to roll the dice. I don't mean this as an offense to anyone but I just don't understand why someone pays hard earned money for their ride and then uses the best oil they feel they can get and then want to scrimp and save maybe 2-3 bucks by buying the cheapest filter they can find. I'm not promoting any particular brand of filter here but I think 99% of us would agree that there are better quality filters to be had for just a few more bucks(maybe less).
The engines that I was refering to were the 22R Toyota 4cyl. engine and the Z24 Nissan 4cyl engine. The two engines that I witnessed Fram paying for were 5.0L Ford truck engines. The Motorcraft filter would have been a FL-1A. It was obvious that Fram had seen this problem before based upon the speed in which they payed for the engine replacements. In fairness,this happened over 10yrs ago but from the photos of that collapsed filter, I would say quality is still in the toilet at Fram.

 

[Bill in Utah]

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The photos of the Fram that had collapsed was/is a common problem. Sometimes the failure causes no engine damage and then sometimes it does. I prefer not to roll the dice. I don't mean this as an offense to anyone but I just don't understand why someone pays hard earned money for their ride and then uses the best oil they feel they can get and then want to scrimp and save maybe 2-3 bucks by buying the cheapest filter they can find. I'm not promoting any particular brand of filter here but I think 99% of us would agree that there are better quality filters to be had for just a few more bucks(maybe less).
The engines that I was refering to were the 22R Toyota 4cyl. engine and the Z24 Nissan 4cyl engine. The two engines that I witnessed Fram paying for were 5.0L Ford truck engines. The Motorcraft filter would have been a FL-1A. It was obvious that Fram had seen this problem before based upon the speed in which they payed for the engine replacements. In fairness,this happened over 10yrs ago but from the photos of that collapsed filter, I would say quality is still in the toilet at Fram.

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I had a 82 SR5 Toyota truck which now has well over 250k miles (the guy who bought it from me still drives it) and its seen only Fram filters. I've cut open EVERY oil filter I've ever used (coming from my aircraft days) and never seen a problem with them.

My 1990 F150 had a 5.0l 302 V8 and again, still on the road with over 200k on it and seen Frams with everyone being cut open with never a problem.

I don't use Frams due to cost. But would if they were price correctly. (I agree with you on better filters for less $$, that since the Supertech is $2.50, a Fram would need to be around $1.25 for me to buy them)

You can spend the extra $$ for more expensive filters if it makes you feel better, but in the long run, it does not make a differance.

I've cut open every filter (more than I'd like to admit over 30plus years of driving)

, I've never had a problem. This is with $6 filters over $2 filters. The UOAs show excellent filtering. The engines last and run well.

Take care, bill

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, Bill and Mokanic, you're somewhat polarized here. To somewhat bring both of your views into perspective, I'm sure that there were millions of drivers that didn't have collapsed filters and moved forward to live happy lives. That doesn't mean that collapse didn't occur at a higher frequency than others. High enough to get noticed by a few and written off by Fram out of the gross profit structure. More than a few may have had collapsed filters and not even had a clue that they were.

Bill, you were a pioneer in cutting filters open "back in the day".

Don't confused a singularity of exceptional performance/results as being any indicator of the reliability or resilience of any given product combination or practice templated across all users under all circumstances. Also you don't want to create an urban legend on a few instances of failure. Nothing is absolute from all angles. We all base our impressions of our environment upon our perceptions of the environment.

That is, YMM(obviously)V.

When I "test" something in a "eyezgotz2nose" manner ..I make every effort to JUMP UP AND DOWN with two feet to find the edge of the envelope. If someone is concerned about .02 ...I'll pile on 20.02 and see what happens. Even going to that extreme only means that "it didn't (or did) happen for me".

 

[daman]

FRAM's suck..

 

[turbochem]

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It was obvious that Fram had seen this problem before based upon the speed in which they payed for the engine replacements.

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Well...what more proof do you people need? Rigorous testing and stuff? Bah...

Although, I would love to see these recent Fram pictures. Sounds interesting.

 

[honus402]

I had one collapse on a Ford 5.0. Oil pressure dropped from 65 psi to 10 psi just before it totally collapsed so I shut it down prior to any engine damage. Since then, I've been using MC and Wix filters.

 

[Mokanic]

Quote:

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Quote:

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The photos of the Fram that had collapsed was/is a common problem. Sometimes the failure causes no engine damage and then sometimes it does. I prefer not to roll the dice. I don't mean this as an offense to anyone but I just don't understand why someone pays hard earned money for their ride and then uses the best oil they feel they can get and then want to scrimp and save maybe 2-3 bucks by buying the cheapest filter they can find. I'm not promoting any particular brand of filter here but I think 99% of us would agree that there are better quality filters to be had for just a few more bucks(maybe less).
The engines that I was refering to were the 22R Toyota 4cyl. engine and the Z24 Nissan 4cyl engine. The two engines that I witnessed Fram paying for were 5.0L Ford truck engines. The Motorcraft filter would have been a FL-1A. It was obvious that Fram had seen this problem before based upon the speed in which they payed for the engine replacements. In fairness,this happened over 10yrs ago but from the photos of that collapsed filter, I would say quality is still in the toilet at Fram.

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I had a 82 SR5 Toyota truck which now has well over 250k miles (the guy who bought it from me still drives it) and its seen only Fram filters. I've cut open EVERY oil filter I've ever used (coming from my aircraft days) and never seen a problem with them.

My 1990 F150 had a 5.0l 302 V8 and again, still on the road with over 200k on it and seen Frams with everyone being cut open with never a problem.

I don't use Frams due to cost. But would if they were price correctly. (I agree with you on better filters for less $$, that since the Supertech is $2.50, a Fram would need to be around $1.25 for me to buy them)

You can spend the extra $$ for more expensive filters if it makes you feel better, but in the long run, it does not make a differance.

I've cut open every filter (more than I'd like to admit over 30plus years of driving)

, I've never had a problem. This is with $6 filters over $2 filters. The UOAs show excellent filtering. The engines last and run well.

Take care, bill

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Count your blessings name them one by one;Count your blessings see what HE hath done; Count your many blessing name them one by one.

To use that many Frams without a problem is FAR more than luck my friend. HE has been good to you.

 

[chucky2]

Most likely the vast majority of people don't see failures due to Fram is that most change their oil at least at somewhat reasonable intervals, and modern engine and oil design is such that nothing catastrophic is floating in the oil....you all remember Bob's test right where he ran no filter on his Escort?

I agree with the others in the thread: In the business world you are constantly looking to cut costs to maximize profits, all without creating liability and ruining your rep due to failures. If Wix, Purolator, etc. could get away with the same cheap (is there really any other word for it?) construction and materials Fram uses in their "orange cans of death", don't you think they would in a heartbeat?

Think of the many millions in savings they could enjoy, for basically a little one time effort.

There's a reason they're not, and it's not because they don't like making (more) money....

Chuck

 

[turbochem]

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If Wix, Purolator, etc. could get away with the same cheap (is there really any other word for it?) construction and materials Fram

Chuck

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I think if you could explain which materials or contruction processes (in detail) Fram uses that you (and possibly others) consider "cheap," and how it is detrimental to the function of the filter, it would do wonders to advance this thread.