Which NO-VII Oil would you recommend?

[SubieRubyRoo]

The fart smells go away after awhile.

That’s because it deadens the response of your olfactory system, not because the smell goes away.

Just ask Navy sub volunteers why their coming home set of clothes are generally double-bagged in sealed plastic… because the smell gets normalized, not eliminated!

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

I don’t understand the appeal of the 10W oils in this family when the 5W are shear stable and have excellent specs all around. There’s not really a sizeable HTHS bump either like mainstream oils tend to have.

“Generally speaking” the 10w will have still lower Noack/TGA results than the 5w oils. Also if you look, the 10w options (other than the 10w20) also have a higher HT/HS due to less of the thinner base oils used to get the viscosity where HPL desired.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

I’m not on board with the no VII movement when cold start performance is critical.
There’s always been a balance of engine oils thickening from evaporation loss (noack) and thinning from the permanent shear of viscosity modifiers.
Removing one without the other could result in a loss of a winter grade or two.

And yet it’s certified as a 5w with the results to show for it. As @kschachn has pointed out in nearly every thread that discusses winter ratings, an oil is allowed to “slip” one winter grade in use and still be considered as the lower rating as long as virgin results meet the requirements. Otherwise, it must be called the higher (worse) winter rating… which can then slip one rating from there.

So a 5w may end up a 10w depending on its usage status, but if it were to slip to a 15w it could never be classified as a 5w oil initially.

 

[chris719]

“Generally speaking” the 10w will have still lower Noack/TGA results than the 5w oils. Also if you look, the 10w options also have a higher HT/HS due to less of the thinner base oils used to get the viscosity where HPL desired.

I understand the Noack but the Euro 5W-20/30 and PCMO 5W-30 are pretty great regarding HTHS and only fractionally off the 10Ws for the most part. The Euro 5W-20 in particular I would take every single time over the 10W-20.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

I understand the Noack but the Euro 5W-20/30 and PCMO 5W-30 are pretty great regarding HTHS and only fractionally off the 10Ws for the most part. The Euro 5W-20 in particular I would take every single time over the 10W-20.

In the case of the Euro 5w20 vs 10w20 they are actually quite different; the HTHS of the 10w20 is 0.5 lower than the 5w20, and has been chosen by some members due to the fact that every 0.5 reduction in HT/HS can result in a 2% fuel economy increase. If their local temps are not colder than the limits of 10w testing point, there is no issue. Conversely, the 5w20 will offer more robust protection due to its higher HT/HS.

IMO this is just HPL offering additional ways to “skin the cat” since their business model is delivering the best oil possible to supply the wants of their customers. It only has to make sense to the people who are buying it

 

[userfriendly]

And yet it’s certified as a 5w with the results to show for it. As @kschachn has pointed out in nearly every thread that discusses winter ratings, an oil is allowed to “slip” one winter grade in use and still be considered as the lower rating as long as virgin results meet the requirements. Otherwise, it must be called the higher (worse) winter rating… which can then slip one rating from there.

So a 5w may end up a 10w depending on its usage status, but if it were to slip to a 15w it could never be classified as a 5w oil initially.

I knew the implications and what the responses would be when I posted the above. For the reasons you stated, I think it’s important and a wise decision to go into the winter months with fresh oil.
Yes, the rules allow for a slip in winter grade over the drain interval, so plan your oil changes accordingly.

 

[chris719]

IMO this is just HPL offering additional ways to “skin the cat” since their business model is delivering the best oil possible to supply the wants of their customers. It only has to make sense to the people who are buying it

I see. I don’t know that I understand the market for a 10W boutique “fuel economy” oil but it’s quite possible I’m wrong on that.

 

[userfriendly]

I see. I don’t know that I understand the market for a 10W boutique “fuel economy” oil but it’s quite possible I’m wrong on that.

I believe that a no VII 0w20 or 5w30 engine oil, the two grades that have Dexos 1 gen 3 approval might not pass the fuel economy or stay in grade requirements.
Therefore licensing would be denied.
Like you Chris, I don’t see the point.
Perhaps looking for a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

I knew the implications and what the responses would be when I posted the above. For the reasons you stated, I think it’s important and a wise decision to go into the winter months with fresh oil.
Yes, the rules allow for a slip in winter grade over the drain interval, so plan your oil changes accordingly.

That’s fair, if you’re in a climate that the “slip” rating may pose concerns.

But how does one know when the winter rating has slipped? Does it occur by hours in use, or mileage, or oxidation increase, etc?

 

[userfriendly]

That’s fair, if you’re in a climate that the “slip” rating may pose concerns.

But how does one know when the winter rating has slipped? Does it occur by hours in use, or mileage, or oxidation increase, etc?

Basing my strategy by anticipating the responses.
0W30 and 0W40s have found favour in forestry, mining and pipeline equipment owners who leave their machines in the field sometimes for days unattended in very cold weather.
A slip in winter grade would result in the engine either not starting or not having oil pressure if it did start.
I have seen a no oil pressure condition on a pickup truck left overnight in 40 below weather at the Hinton, Alberta pulp mill.
The oil was 5w30 D1G2 from a fast lube joint.
A good practice would be to pick a winter grade below the anticipated temperature.

 

[chris719]

I’d love to understand how a no VII 3.5 HTHS oil performs vs a VII loaded 3.5+ HTHS oil like the ESP X3 0W-40 (VI 204) in terms of wear protection. Is HTHS a sufficient proxy for performance, or can a lower viscosity but lower VII oil perform better? A low/no VII oil won’t experience temporary or permanent shear in those locations in the engine that might be beyond the HTHS test conditions.

In other words, if fuel economy wasn’t a goal would we see most high end oils formulated like the HPL No VII, Redline HP, Ravenol VMP, etc?

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

In other words, if fuel economy wasn’t a goal would we see most high end oils formulated like the HPL No VII, Redline HP, Ravenol VMP, etc?

As hard as this was for me to believe, Dave maintains that the SuperCar product line is HPL’s pinnacle oil; even above that of the No VII lineup. I’ve got SuperCar in the sump right now; I’ll be checking back in about 14k miles for a follow up UOA to my No VII Euro run.

There’s obviously some benefit in some cases for well-chosen viscosity modifiers; if there wasn’t, SuperCar wouldn’t have them either. We can really only learn by doing, so that’s where I’m headed. Should have the UOA in a short 6-8 months lol

 

[OilUzer]

When I used to do more research about which brand of oil to use, Amsoil SS 10W-30 was one of my favorites. iirc has no vm and Noack = 4.1

Not sure if the formulation has changed over the years or not. Also some had concerns with the certifications ... Something I didn't care about since they are a reputable company but price was the issue for me so I settled for M1 EP 10W-30.

I am a 10W fan and iirc
10W MRV = -22F, CCS = -13F

So you are cutting it close since your "worst case is -15F".

I assume -15F (not -15C) since you didn't specify but live in Colarado.
If it's -15C, then you are well within mrv/ccs of -30C/-25C.

If -15F:
2F delta is not a major concern imho, used to run 10W-40 dino in very cold Idaho for MANY years. So did everyone else I knew!

 

[Jetronic]

I’m not on board with the no VII movement when cold start performance is critical.
There’s always been a balance of engine oils thickening from evaporation loss (noack) and thinning from the permanent shear of viscosity modifiers.
Removing one without the other could result in a loss of a winter grade or two.

But Noack is inherently better on no VII oils, due to the base oils being of higher viscosity and often better basestock with inherently less evaporation. Then on the other hand we have fuel dilution which is worse in winter....

 

[OilUzer]

But Noack is inherently better on no VII oils, due to the base oils being of higher viscosity and often better basestock with inherently less evaporation. Then on the other hand we have fuel dilution which is worse in winter....

Can we say in general, and all else being equal, that oils with less vm (having thicker base) are more resistant to fuel dilution or takes longer for them to dilute since they have a thicker base oil?

What's the impact of fuel on the polymers (vm) compared to the base oil? Do they (vm) break down easier when exposed to fuel?

This may have been discussed before many times but was never on my radar and never paid attention.

Your post made me think of it. I don't want to hijack the thread. I always favored narrow spread oils with low(er) vm and lower Noacks ... but never thought about impact of fuel on vm till now.

Thank you!

 

[Danno]

5w-30

Is this an issue, double the oxidation limit?

 

[Jetronic]

Is this an issue, double the oxidation limit?

No, you should look at how it increases so it's important to know what you start with. The test looks for oxygen in molecules, and Esters contain them in their polar head, as does ethanol so in a UOA oxydation can come from fuel dilution.

 

[Jetronic]

Can we say in general, and all else being equal, that oils with less vm (having thicker base) are more resistant to fuel dilution or take longer for them to dilute since they have a thicker base oil?

What's the impact of fuel on the polymers (vm) as oppose to the base oil. Do they (vm) break down easier when exposed to fuel?

This may have been discussed many times before but was never on my radar and didn't pay attention.

your post just made me think of that. I don't want to hijack the thread. I always favored low vm and low spread oils with lower Noacks ... but never thought about impact of fuel on vm till now.

Thank you!

I don't think they resist fuel dilution better, but higher viscosity base oils will resist evaporation when mixed with fuel better.

Another issue is in areas that are very prone to shearing oil (like chains and gears, the base oil mix viscosity is much more indicative of the MOFT than HTHS is (HTHS viscosity is not full shear viscosity) and fuel impacts that. The higher the base oil viscosity you start with the better off you are.

Also the more common VM are not clean burning, fuel in the mix will make them more prone to (partially) burn and cause deposits in areas you don't want, like piston ring lands

 

[BrendanC]

Is this an issue, double the oxidation limit?

IIRC, this oil starts somewhere in the 40’s for virgin oxidation.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

One of the base oils that’s used starts off at 9.5cSt@100*C has a Noack of only 2.2%. The pour point makes it a 10w at best (I’m not sure if PPDs would be beneficial or even warranted unless shooting for a 5w) but that’s a pretty amazing result. The additives will likely have a higher Noack and therefore the final product will be slightly higher than indicated here.