I have a Ruger SP101 .357 with the 3 1/16th inch barrel for home defense and am trying to decide on which of two .38 spl +P rounds will provide the maximum muzzle energy. I currently have it stoked with Speer GDHP 125 gr +P and am wondering if I’d be better off with the short barrel version of this round since my barrel is less than 4”. (135 gr +P) It seems like it might not make much if any difference, the 125gr +P standard barrel round does produce higher muzzle energy than the short barrel version in the Speer ballistics tables but of course that's from a test barrel that’s at least 4” and may be as long as 6”. I’m wondering if my 3” barrel would reduce the muzzle energy to less than what would be achieved with the short barrel version. Thoughts?
Which .38spl +P?
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I would be concerned about muzzle flash for SD at night. I am using Federal .357 125Gr JHP personal defense loads in my SW 586. But I have a 6" barrel. Supposedly the Federal rounds have less flash. But I haven't tried them in the dark which is probably not a bad idea to do. I don't think the different brands will make much difference in ballistic speed.
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125 gr. +P loads in the .357 have one of the best ratings in the category of one shot stops.
not willing to light off 357 mag inside the house
I don't think it'll make any difference. And the round that makes higher velocity in the longer barrel most likely also will from the shorter one. I'd personally opt for the 125+P anyway.
I used to carry a .38 Special on duty many years ago and never felt under gunned, well not round capability wise anyway LOL.
I used to carry a .38 Special on duty many years ago and never felt under gunned, well not round capability wise anyway LOL.
Experimenting with the effects of the flash in the dark and the noise in a confined space is very important both in the difference in loads and how you respond after firing a shot. To be safe and effective you must know what to expect and how to deal with it.
The short barrel load is actually a hotter load. The info provided by Speer is non-comparable due to the different test barrels.
They both should expand fine. The short barrel load typically penetrates slightly less because it opens sooner and opens wider.
Either load are excellent and will work fine.
Agree about the .357 mag. Excessive recoil, flash, and blast that is not very conducive to good follow up shots. .38 special is better for in the house, in my opinion.
They both should expand fine. The short barrel load typically penetrates slightly less because it opens sooner and opens wider.
Either load are excellent and will work fine.
Agree about the .357 mag. Excessive recoil, flash, and blast that is not very conducive to good follow up shots. .38 special is better for in the house, in my opinion.
I use the Buffalo bore version of the old FBI load in my sp101. 38+p 158 grain all lead semi wadcutter hollow point. It is very-very hot for a 38 but still below .357 mag, allows follow up shots and also uses low flash powder.
Hornaday Critical Defense .38 Special/P made right down the road in Grand Island, Nebraska.
Originally Posted By: HosteenJorje
Hornaday Critical Defense .38 Special/P made right down the road in Grand Island, Nebraska.
Should never, ever, not ever, not in a million years, be loaded in a gun that you use for self defense. Pure, utter, garbage. Hornady spent their entire R&D budget on advertising the junk because it just does not perform in every single workshop I have seen it run in. Sure it expands. But it is loaded so light that it doesn't penetrate.
Crital Duty = decent
Critical Defense = joke
They redesigned their own ammo and came out with the Critical Duty ammo becuase not even a single law enforcement agency in the country adopted their Critical Defense ammo like they thought they would.
Hornaday Critical Defense .38 Special/P made right down the road in Grand Island, Nebraska.
Should never, ever, not ever, not in a million years, be loaded in a gun that you use for self defense. Pure, utter, garbage. Hornady spent their entire R&D budget on advertising the junk because it just does not perform in every single workshop I have seen it run in. Sure it expands. But it is loaded so light that it doesn't penetrate.
Crital Duty = decent
Critical Defense = joke
They redesigned their own ammo and came out with the Critical Duty ammo becuase not even a single law enforcement agency in the country adopted their Critical Defense ammo like they thought they would.
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: HosteenJorje
Hornaday Critical Defense .38 Special/P made right down the road in Grand Island, Nebraska.
Should never, ever, not ever, not in a million years, be loaded in a gun that you use for self defense. Pure, utter, garbage. Hornady spent their entire R&D budget on advertising the junk because it just does not perform in every single workshop I have seen it run in. Sure it expands. But it is loaded so light that it doesn't penetrate.
Crital Duty = decent
Critical Defense = joke
They redesigned their own ammo and came out with the Critical Duty ammo becuase not even a single law enforcement agency in the country adopted their Critical Defense ammo like they thought they would.
I agree that critical duty is a better load in all calibers it is available in, no question.
But I gotta ask, are you specifically talking about the .38sp+p critical defense load? My understanding is that criticial defense in 9mm/.40s&w is not a light load.
I also have to challenge your assertion that Hornady expected law enforcement agencies to adopt the critical defense ammo. I never saw any evidence that they expected that... on the contrary, I think they knew the limitations of the critical defense loads all the while. They knew it would not pass the FBI test protocols. I think they set out to build a load that would expand and not over-penetrate, and then sold those loads to a target market where those specs were needed.
Yes, critical defense is a joke in the FBI tests. It was never supposed to compete in those tests, it wasn't designed for that.
Originally Posted By: HosteenJorje
Hornaday Critical Defense .38 Special/P made right down the road in Grand Island, Nebraska.
Should never, ever, not ever, not in a million years, be loaded in a gun that you use for self defense. Pure, utter, garbage. Hornady spent their entire R&D budget on advertising the junk because it just does not perform in every single workshop I have seen it run in. Sure it expands. But it is loaded so light that it doesn't penetrate.
Crital Duty = decent
Critical Defense = joke
They redesigned their own ammo and came out with the Critical Duty ammo becuase not even a single law enforcement agency in the country adopted their Critical Defense ammo like they thought they would.
I agree that critical duty is a better load in all calibers it is available in, no question.
But I gotta ask, are you specifically talking about the .38sp+p critical defense load? My understanding is that criticial defense in 9mm/.40s&w is not a light load.
I also have to challenge your assertion that Hornady expected law enforcement agencies to adopt the critical defense ammo. I never saw any evidence that they expected that... on the contrary, I think they knew the limitations of the critical defense loads all the while. They knew it would not pass the FBI test protocols. I think they set out to build a load that would expand and not over-penetrate, and then sold those loads to a target market where those specs were needed.
Yes, critical defense is a joke in the FBI tests. It was never supposed to compete in those tests, it wasn't designed for that.
Originally Posted By: danthaman1980
I also have to challenge your assertion that Hornady expected law enforcement agencies to adopt the critical defense ammo. I never saw any evidence that they expected that... on the contrary, I think they knew the limitations of the critical defense loads all the while. They knew it would not pass the FBI test protocols. I think they set out to build a load that would expand and not over-penetrate, and then sold those loads to a target market where those specs were needed.
So your "assertion" is that Hornady PURPOSELY designed a round that does not meet minimum FBI specifications, tested it and found that to be the case, and then went on a huge advertising campaign to advertise this substandard ammunition to unsuspecting consumers that assume it is top notch ammunition based on the pretty packaging and advertising claims?
If they PURPOSELY designed a substandard ammo, even more reason for me to avoid it/not like it, etc.
I also have to challenge your assertion that Hornady expected law enforcement agencies to adopt the critical defense ammo. I never saw any evidence that they expected that... on the contrary, I think they knew the limitations of the critical defense loads all the while. They knew it would not pass the FBI test protocols. I think they set out to build a load that would expand and not over-penetrate, and then sold those loads to a target market where those specs were needed.
So your "assertion" is that Hornady PURPOSELY designed a round that does not meet minimum FBI specifications, tested it and found that to be the case, and then went on a huge advertising campaign to advertise this substandard ammunition to unsuspecting consumers that assume it is top notch ammunition based on the pretty packaging and advertising claims?
If they PURPOSELY designed a substandard ammo, even more reason for me to avoid it/not like it, etc.
Originally Posted By: bradepb
I use the Buffalo bore version of the old FBI load in my sp101. 38+p 158 grain all lead semi wadcutter hollow point. It is very-very hot for a 38 but still below .357 mag, allows follow up shots and also uses low flash powder.
This. Buffalo Bore is a great choice.
I use the Buffalo bore version of the old FBI load in my sp101. 38+p 158 grain all lead semi wadcutter hollow point. It is very-very hot for a 38 but still below .357 mag, allows follow up shots and also uses low flash powder.
This. Buffalo Bore is a great choice.
As far as high performance, self defense ammunition, I thought I would throw this out there. This is 2,000 rounds of 9 MM +P Gold Dot I picked up bulk packaged for just $657.00. That comes to around $16.43 for a box of 50. All that was "wrong" with it, was this particular lot chronographed 5 FPS under Speer's minimum standard acceptable velocity. Because of that they could not sell it to law enforcement. Most high performance self defense ammo must meet strict velocity parameters, or it cannot be packaged and sold the same as the ammunition that does.
So what Speer, (and other companies), do is bulk package it, and sell it off cheaper. They recover their cost, plus a slight profit. Granted, this doesn't happen very often. But it pays to keep your eyes open by watching on line, bulk ammo outfits so when it does pop up, you can grab it. It makes for quite a big savings considering most of this stuff goes for over a buck a round.
5 FPS in a +P, 9 MM load isn't going to amount to much of anything. I bought a box of +P Gold Dot from my local Cabela's, just to compare, (I paid $23.00 for a box of 20), and there was no difference in report, recoil, or pistol operation. I've fired this stuff in all of my Glocks, Browning Hi-Powers, and CZ-75's without a single FTF or FTE. When I feel really energetic I'll run some of it over a chronograph just to see. As I mentioned, it came in sealed, labeled cardboard boxes. Visually or dimensionally you cannot tell the difference. I drove over to Dillon in Scottsdale and bought some nice 100 round boxes for it. This is where I bought it from.
https://www.unammo.com/
I haven't seen any more since then. When he had this stuff he had around 7,000 rounds of it. I wished I had bought it all. Like I say it doesn't come around very often, but it's worth keeping your eyes open for it when it does.
So what Speer, (and other companies), do is bulk package it, and sell it off cheaper. They recover their cost, plus a slight profit. Granted, this doesn't happen very often. But it pays to keep your eyes open by watching on line, bulk ammo outfits so when it does pop up, you can grab it. It makes for quite a big savings considering most of this stuff goes for over a buck a round.
5 FPS in a +P, 9 MM load isn't going to amount to much of anything. I bought a box of +P Gold Dot from my local Cabela's, just to compare, (I paid $23.00 for a box of 20), and there was no difference in report, recoil, or pistol operation. I've fired this stuff in all of my Glocks, Browning Hi-Powers, and CZ-75's without a single FTF or FTE. When I feel really energetic I'll run some of it over a chronograph just to see. As I mentioned, it came in sealed, labeled cardboard boxes. Visually or dimensionally you cannot tell the difference. I drove over to Dillon in Scottsdale and bought some nice 100 round boxes for it. This is where I bought it from.
https://www.unammo.com/
I haven't seen any more since then. When he had this stuff he had around 7,000 rounds of it. I wished I had bought it all. Like I say it doesn't come around very often, but it's worth keeping your eyes open for it when it does.
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
So your "assertion" is that Hornady PURPOSELY designed a round that does not meet minimum FBI specifications, tested it and found that to be the case, and then went on a huge advertising campaign to advertise this substandard ammunition to unsuspecting consumers that assume it is top notch ammunition based on the pretty packaging and advertising claims?
If they PURPOSELY designed a substandard ammo, even more reason for me to avoid it/not like it, etc.
Something like that
At least we agree that critical duty > critical defense
For the record - in .38 sp +p, I carry the gold dot 135gr load.
So your "assertion" is that Hornady PURPOSELY designed a round that does not meet minimum FBI specifications, tested it and found that to be the case, and then went on a huge advertising campaign to advertise this substandard ammunition to unsuspecting consumers that assume it is top notch ammunition based on the pretty packaging and advertising claims?
If they PURPOSELY designed a substandard ammo, even more reason for me to avoid it/not like it, etc.
Something like that
At least we agree that critical duty > critical defense
For the record - in .38 sp +p, I carry the gold dot 135gr load.
Originally Posted By: bradepb
I use the Buffalo bore version of the old FBI load in my sp101. 38+p 158 grain all lead semi wadcutter hollow point. It is very-very hot for a 38 but still below .357 mag, allows follow up shots and also uses low flash powder.
Me too. 158 grain all lead semi wadcutter hollow point.
In non +P in both my 2 inch Colt and S&W I found many jacketed 38's would not expand at all ballistic gelatin or water. In fact about the only non +p that would was the federal hydra shok.
I use the Buffalo bore version of the old FBI load in my sp101. 38+p 158 grain all lead semi wadcutter hollow point. It is very-very hot for a 38 but still below .357 mag, allows follow up shots and also uses low flash powder.
Me too. 158 grain all lead semi wadcutter hollow point.
In non +P in both my 2 inch Colt and S&W I found many jacketed 38's would not expand at all ballistic gelatin or water. In fact about the only non +p that would was the federal hydra shok.
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I did some experimenting with .357 Mag rounds a few months back to compare the performance of slower burning powders versus faster burning powders in shorter barrels. As has been pointed out, most published ballistic data for factory loads use 6” or longer barrels for revolver ammunition.
Getting maximum velocity from the Magnum calibers usually requires a case full of slow burning powder. Due to the lower maximum pressure allowable for the 38+P, a lesser charge level is required and the powders used are typically in the more medium range of pistol powders.
I stuffed four different loads into .357 Mag brass and ran them through the chronograph. For the powders, I chose H110 (a slow burning pistol powder), Unique, HS-6, and W231 (a fast burning pistol powder) behind a 125 gr. JHP bullet. The charges were low (starting) levels and do not represent max loads that would be closer to most factory ammo. However, I thought the relative differences between the powders might still reflect the relative performance (velocity) differences between the loads.
Instead of the 6” or 8” barrel typically used in testing factory ammo, mine were shot from a 4” Ruger Service 6. The averages of the 5 shot strings were:
H110 1224 fps, with a Standard Deviation of 25.8
Unique 1278 fps, SD 52.6
HS-6 1204 fps, SD 18.9
W231 1227 fps, SD 11.8
Then I loaded up a few more rounds with higher powder charges and shot them through a 2 3/4” Ruger Security 6. The averages of the 5 shot strings were:
HS-6 1216 fps, SD 20.5
W231 1250 fps, SD 9.7
So what does all that prove when it comes to factory rounds? Perhaps very little. There may be too little applicable info here to draw any accurate conclusions. But to me (who handloads almost exclusively) it suggests that the service/carry length revolvers are best served with faster powders. The slower powders that yield higher velocities in longer barrels probably offer little advantage over faster powders in these shorter barrels.
Winchester's W231, in particular, makes a very nice powder for shorter barreled .357 Mag 125 gr. Loads. I found loads with it very consistent with good velocity and relatively low muzzle flash. If I were loading a 3” barreled .357 Mag with defensive ammo, I'd first look at loads that were more tailored to shorter barrels, and forget about trying to get every last fps out of it. A 125 gr. Bullet at 1250+ fps is very suitable for self defense with an appropriate bullet.
I haven't done a similar level of work with 38+P loads. But at the allowable pressure levels along with a 3” barrel, I'd be surprised if both good expansion and deep penetration are achievable since you're looking at less than 1100 fps with most ammo. For a 38+P home use load I'd probably seek out a hollow point to limit penetration and perhaps give a little expansion, such as a 110gr. or 125 gr. JHP or even a soft swagged lead 158 gr. SWCHP. For outside the home, I'd probably just go with a cast lead 158gr. SWC (or of swagged lead in the case of most factory ammo).
Getting maximum velocity from the Magnum calibers usually requires a case full of slow burning powder. Due to the lower maximum pressure allowable for the 38+P, a lesser charge level is required and the powders used are typically in the more medium range of pistol powders.
I stuffed four different loads into .357 Mag brass and ran them through the chronograph. For the powders, I chose H110 (a slow burning pistol powder), Unique, HS-6, and W231 (a fast burning pistol powder) behind a 125 gr. JHP bullet. The charges were low (starting) levels and do not represent max loads that would be closer to most factory ammo. However, I thought the relative differences between the powders might still reflect the relative performance (velocity) differences between the loads.
Instead of the 6” or 8” barrel typically used in testing factory ammo, mine were shot from a 4” Ruger Service 6. The averages of the 5 shot strings were:
H110 1224 fps, with a Standard Deviation of 25.8
Unique 1278 fps, SD 52.6
HS-6 1204 fps, SD 18.9
W231 1227 fps, SD 11.8
Then I loaded up a few more rounds with higher powder charges and shot them through a 2 3/4” Ruger Security 6. The averages of the 5 shot strings were:
HS-6 1216 fps, SD 20.5
W231 1250 fps, SD 9.7
So what does all that prove when it comes to factory rounds? Perhaps very little. There may be too little applicable info here to draw any accurate conclusions. But to me (who handloads almost exclusively) it suggests that the service/carry length revolvers are best served with faster powders. The slower powders that yield higher velocities in longer barrels probably offer little advantage over faster powders in these shorter barrels.
Winchester's W231, in particular, makes a very nice powder for shorter barreled .357 Mag 125 gr. Loads. I found loads with it very consistent with good velocity and relatively low muzzle flash. If I were loading a 3” barreled .357 Mag with defensive ammo, I'd first look at loads that were more tailored to shorter barrels, and forget about trying to get every last fps out of it. A 125 gr. Bullet at 1250+ fps is very suitable for self defense with an appropriate bullet.
I haven't done a similar level of work with 38+P loads. But at the allowable pressure levels along with a 3” barrel, I'd be surprised if both good expansion and deep penetration are achievable since you're looking at less than 1100 fps with most ammo. For a 38+P home use load I'd probably seek out a hollow point to limit penetration and perhaps give a little expansion, such as a 110gr. or 125 gr. JHP or even a soft swagged lead 158 gr. SWCHP. For outside the home, I'd probably just go with a cast lead 158gr. SWC (or of swagged lead in the case of most factory ammo).
I found some additional data taken about a month later. I chronographed some 38Sp +P 125 gr. JHP loads charged with HS-6, Unique, and W231. From a 4” Ruger Service Six the average muzzle velocities of the six shot strings were:
HS-6 _ _ 964 fps, SD 3.1
Unique _ _ 975 fps, SD 31.9
W231 _ _ 971 fps, SD 9.6
These velocities are about 300 fps slower than the .357 Mag loads I fired a month earlier. The HS-6 and Unique loads were below maximum, and the W231 load was close to maximum.
HS-6 _ _ 964 fps, SD 3.1
Unique _ _ 975 fps, SD 31.9
W231 _ _ 971 fps, SD 9.6
These velocities are about 300 fps slower than the .357 Mag loads I fired a month earlier. The HS-6 and Unique loads were below maximum, and the W231 load was close to maximum.
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Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Experimenting with the effects of the flash in the dark and the noise in a confined space is very important both in the difference in loads and how you respond after firing a shot. To be safe and effective you must know what to expect and how to deal with it.
Good point. I am going to try it.
Experimenting with the effects of the flash in the dark and the noise in a confined space is very important both in the difference in loads and how you respond after firing a shot. To be safe and effective you must know what to expect and how to deal with it.
Good point. I am going to try it.
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