When is GM going to learn? (long)

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Sorry promises of extended warranties don't fix faulty engineering on Toyota's part.Free replacement with new and properly engineered engines does. I won't hold my breath in waiting for Honda to build a proper maintenance free valvetrain either. Apologies are not acceptable for imports. [ May 03, 2006, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: Rickey ]
 
"Old "antiques" ? To this day I've never ridden in a NEWER NEAR stock car (just headers & good tires) that set me back in the seat so hard to 115 MPH, as a friends red 67 Corvette did with a 435HP/427 tri power solid lifter with 4:11 and 4 speed. Those antique solid lifter cammed motors were GM Glory days." Hirev You and I will just have to agree to agree regarding your comment. [Smile] [Cheers!]
 
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Originally posted by Win: (...snip...) Stop for fuel at FSM and I'll let you drive all of 'em. [Cheers!]
Tell me where -- I'll be there tomorrow!!! We're on the same sheet of music. Ironically, I just got back from a dinner out with a couple colleagues and our Commanding General. The four of us rode in a brand new rental Chevy Impala. Can't say for sure, but I'd bet about 10 paychecks that this was a 3.5L car (remotely coulda been a 3.9, but I don't know why Avis would opt for a performance engine, and it was certainly not a V-8 SS). Anyway, the engine was very, very smooth, I was impressed. Noticeably better to my sensitive ear than the previous gen 3.4 I'd sampled in a rental myself a while back. On the downside, the body work was clearly not on par with either Toyota or my Infiniti. The doors closed with a much less substantial feel, and several cheap sounding rattles were apparent. On the upside, the leather on the seats (a nice touch in a rental) felt good and smelled nice, and was a cut above that in the 98 Buick I once owned. Far from bad, but they could do better. EDIT/ADDITION: Win: Let me add this. You're 100% correct about the profile of an OHC engine. It's head structure will always take up a good bit more room than an OHV design of similar displacement. In the performance-oriented OHC designs, the VVT feature makes a huge difference, IMO. With traction control off, and an aggressive step into the gas, my G35 Sed will break traction immediately and authoritatively, and will spin 'em with reckless abandon. The VQ35 torques like there's no tomorrow. [Wink] Of course, DOHC I-4s need not apply. . . [Razz] [ May 03, 2006, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]
 
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Originally posted by Rickey: Sorry promises of extended extendended warranties don't fix faulty engineering on Toyota's part.Free replacement with new and properly engineered engines does. I won't hold my breath in waiting for Honda to build a proper maintenance free valvetrain either. Apologies are not acceptable for imports either.
I'm sorry if it disappoints you, but reportedly, the problem is a simple misunderstanding among assembly personnel concerning the installation of one snap ring. Bad for sure, but nothing like installing known-to-be-bad intake gaskets for YEARS. Problem is fixed, back to the usual A+ Toyota experience. At least Toyota extended an apology to its customers as compared to GM's F-U attitude. But please do see my above post, GM is building some decent cars today. I just wish I could easily get past the lingering feeling of betrayal that persists after my last GM experience. . .
 
If it has a timing belt it definately has scheluled maint. Most VTEC's and all non hydraulic valvetrains also require periodic adjustments.
 
i went in to get my valvetrain adjusted, because all previous models have it required at certain intervals. service guys said theyve never had to do one on my car, it only needs to be adjusted when it becomes noisy.. great honda..i'm sure most owners really know what a noisy valvetrain sounds like [Roll Eyes] . only way most people would know is by the tech telling them when they bring it in for service.. and by then who knows what kind of damage has been done.. im rambling [Bang Head]
 
For anyone who thinks there is a difference between imports and domestics when it comes to rust...you're smokin' your socks! I drive about 50K miles here in the midwest and everything rusts...unless you don't drive it [Frown]
 
Ekpolk, I have driven a number of G35s and 350Zs to be honest and I love them as cars. Comparing that engine to the 3.8L has several flaws though when you go to say "its better because its OHC and it has plenty of torque" The Nissan 3.5 is very close in displacement to the 3.8L, but it is cammed radically different. On radically cammed 3.8s (we dont have variable timing so we must idle like a dragster at a stoplight to make awesome power) 300-350hp is also possible just like the nissan 3.5 - and when you get into those ranges it still has more torque [Smile] I'm not bashing OHC motors, I think theyre fantastic, and they really are more efficient in terms of power and fuel. The problem was for a long time they were more costly to maintain with mechanical valves, and more often than not they came with timing belts requring 60K mile replacements. This has changed for the most part and now they have hydraulic lifters and twin timing chains that never need replacement. As a result, a new line of GM engines (The 3.9L DOHC V6 for example) is coming out. Remember, GM has to build them cheap to succeed they think. OHV technology is cheaper to build than OHC. (I also used to live in Pensacola, FL out on gulf breeze. Im class of 2000 from GBHS)
 
Hi Well...for starters, I suspect you dont see too many tote or cordoroy roads in Florida. If you have to ask..then you obviously havent and there is the rub..New Hampshire or not. These roads are often only used in the spring by skidders. If you lived in NH , you should know what they are. The mud is a viscous trap, and often can only ne traveled in early a.m. while still frozen. The comment I made about roads the German Wehrmacht faced sping of '42 is accurate. As for the corrosion issue, any one who has been in northern new england can see what nature has wrought on these marvels of mechanized perfection. I joyously point out the rust on my neighbor's '01 Camry's weld seams every chance i get. On a white car, it is truly something to behold. BTW, I have been here for 50 yrs, so when i talk about roads and climate's effects, I do so as a reporter on the scene..not from 1500 miles away.
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On the downside, the body work was clearly not on par with either Toyota or my Infiniti.
I inspected the car carefully and it seemed well designed and assembled. I would have preferred a 90 degree V6..say the L32, but alas...not offered.
 
Dominic: I almost bought a house in GB back in 97. I just couldn't stomach the thought of fighting the three-mile bridge traffic twice a day. . . Hey, last I checked, Philly is a long way from P-cola! To be precise, I don't think the VQ is "better" because it's DOHC and torquey. I love my VQ because of what it transmits to the road, and how it does it. Hey, if Mickey Mouse is in there pushing on the valve stems, that's OK with me! If GM can raise the bar with their OHV pushrod engines, power to them (hey, that's a pun...). I remain very interested to see how their VVT versions of these engines work out. Again, this evening I was impressed with the new Impala's drivetrain. I would truly love to see the "ancient" 231/3.8/3800, cast in all aluminum, and given a good VVT system (hey, grandmas don't like lopey idles...). Now, that would be an impressive engine indeed. [Cheers!]
 
This is sort of a rant, and genuine question..so here goes: In the 1970's, GM brought out a lovely little car called the Vega, with its great unlined aluminum block/iron head engine, and a too-small radiator. This caused well-documented diasterous problems such as worn cylinders, overheating, blown head gaskets, and warped and cracked heads all over the place. GM thought it had researched its metallurgy and design well, but apparantly it hadn't, and the car became synonymous with unreliability in short order. OK, well, everyone is allowed to make even a big mistake, and kudos to GM for trying. Live and learn. Then GM tried again in 1982 with its subcompact J-cars. One of the engines availiable in these cars (Oldsmobile and Pontiac versions) was a 1.8 (later 2.0) litre OHC 4-cylinder motor with an iron block and aluminum head this time. Because of the different expansion rates of iron and aluminum, again this engine became well-known for blowing head gaskets, and possibly ruining the motor in the process on many cars. Anyone who has been around these cars has seen at least on example of this. Still, GM kept producng this engine for over 10 years; I don't know if they replaced head gaskets/engines readily under warranty. But it still made the car get a bad rep for reliability. Now, here we are in the early 2000's, and GM is having a problem with...you guessed it....gaskets and metallurgy, and the expansion rates between iron, aluminum, and now plastic has come into the mix. Because of this, engines are leaking coolant from the intake manifold gasket into the motor, and in many cases, ruining the motor. In a best case scenario, the owner may be stuck with a repair bill for the gasket replacement. You would tink that after the fiasco with the Vega engine and all the bad publicity it generated, that GM would have invested a lot of research effort into metallurgy and gasket composition, and not let it happen again. And when it did happen again on the OHC engine of the 1980's and 1990's, they would have had another opportunity to learn from it and make sure it really didn't happen again. But here we are, again. This is not meant to be an anti-GM rant, I like their products, and my reaction to it is a disappointed "aww, c'mon, don't let this happen again! You can do better than this!" But its hard to have sympathy for a company that simply refuses to learn from its mistakes, especially the same one, over and over again.....
 
It is incredible to me that in 2006 manufacturers are still having head gasket reliability problems! Not just GM either, Subaru, Nissan and others.
 
and what was the question? the way you've worded and described your thoughts about GM then say at the end it isn't meant to be an anti-GM rant insults me. Makes me this of my astroturfing thread I posted last weel.
 
When you say "GM" all I can picture in my head is pushrods. If American carmakers are wondering why they're getting served by Toyota and Honda, it's because they have blown their money on stupid, worthless projects and astronomical executive salaries, and have invested little in engine development. Yes, overhead cammers are starting to surface at GM, but at a snails pace. Even Ford is leaving them in the dust. In the age of the Nissan VQ engine, it's amazing to me that ANY carmaker is still using an iron block and pushrods. Couple their antiquated powerplants with truly ill-conceived vehicle designs and you've got a recipe for a long, painful death.
 
lght: Are you saying that you think Florida is a place of nothing but heavenly smooth, perfect blacktop??? You ever seen red clay before? Or what happens to a road made of it after one of our torrential downpour thunderstorms? [Freak] Although the mechanisms of their creation may vary slightly with geography, vicious (our should I say viscous) mud traps are certainly not only a creature of the New England area. Again, please note that I didn't say that the Impala I rode in was poorly assembled, it was actually OK, just not nearly as solid feeling as either our Sequoia or my G35.
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BTW, I have been here for 50 yrs, so when i talk about roads and climate's effects, I do so as a reporter on the scene..not from 1500 miles away.
Being away now hardly erases the memory and experiences of living with the conditions for two decades. [Cheers!]
 
1, We already covered the fact that GM, Ford, Chrysler products are not rust proof as well as any Japanese, German, Korean, Chinese, etc., made vehicle, correct? Thought so. Who said any manufacturer is perfect? If you live on dirt roads and don't clean the undercarriage properly rust will accelerate. Your neighbor has found this out. You will also have a more agrressive maintenance schedule being on dirt, which most don't follow. Being that I am from New England, I can attest to salt damage to vehicles.
 
Come up here to Maine and there is a big difference. Importname plates from early 90's to mid 90's have a heck of a lot more problems than the domestics. open your eyes and go to a boneyard and look at the old carcasses. I see civics, accords, corrollas etc from that era with major rot in the wheel wells, fllors, rocker panels, doors, inner towers etc. on the doemstics might have some spots on the doors or fenders but nothing major. Dont know about the newer stuff because the yards I go to cater to the old worn out type cars. This is my obsevation.
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Originally posted by spring creek: For anyone who thinks there is a difference between imports and domestics when it comes to rust...you're smokin' your socks! I drive about 50K miles here in the midwest and everything rusts...unless you don't drive it [Frown]
 
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