When is GM going to learn? (long)

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Win: The point is not that one configuration is necessarily "better" than the other, in and of itself. Each has some advantages and disadvantages. Frankly, GM has gone a long way in addressing some of the pushrod engine's disadvantages. IMO, we're near the point where it really doesn't matter how valves open and close. But there are still some differences. Whether or not they matter or not is a question of individual preference. Personally, I like the sound and feel of an OHC engine, and find the pushrod engines I've driven to have a thrashy, rough quality I don't care for, especially at higher rpms. But that's just my taste. BTW, who is the econobox owner who's dumping on the 'vette??? [I dont know]
 
Hi Just for kicks, I stopped into the Honda store and spoke to a tech going out to bring another back into the bay. I asked how their DOHC engines were for longevity.. 100,000 no problem.. 200,000..with care ... 300,000... he was more equivical..and said "occaisionally some do make it, but who wants to keep a car that long anyway..?" I personally doubt oil and plug changes alone were responsible for any that did manage to make it. As for the rust issue... obviously not in your soft climate..but bring one here. Cancer will make it challenging to inspect annually as it approaches 7-10 yrs old. The closer to the coast..the worse they are.
 
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Originally posted by greenjp:
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Originally posted by CBDFrontier06: It's an explanation of how efficiently an engine can produce power. Why build a hulking 6-liter cast-iron OHV powerplant to produce X horsepower when you could make the engine out of ligher materials and make it produce the same or more power more efficiently, thus allowing a smaller, lighter engine...
Wait a minute, you're inventing an "efficiency" based on the weight or block material of the engine and the amount of horsepower it can produce? This is an imaginary efficiency that is of no relevance to automobiles! BTW, many of GM's pushrod engines are in fact all aluminum. [snip]
Including that 6.0L V8 in the 'vette. One of the big advantages of OHV, though, is a lower center of gravity. In a Corvette or Viper, that makes a difference. With all due respect, we've been through the OHC vs. OHV debate a hundred times before. Do a search if you want the lowdown. Some of the members here posted some very knowledgable answers.
 
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Originally posted by Win: [QUOTE]But if it makes you feel better to dump on someone's else's Corvette because your econobox is OHC and his/hers 500+ HP Corvette is OHV, go for it, I guess ....
You tell 'em Win!! HA! The irony is that said Z06 might actually get better hwy. mpg than some of those ecnoboxes, despite being 4x quicker. [LOL!]
 
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Originally posted by greenjp:BTW, many of GM's pushrod engines are in fact all aluminum.[/QB]
YES! So maybe that makes some of your (the anti pushrod people) iron blocked/al headed imports "low tech" and "antiquated". [Razz]
 
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Originally posted by lght1: (...snip...) 100,000 no problem.. 200,000..with care ... 300,000... he was more equivical..and said "occaisionally some do make it, but who wants to keep a car that long anyway..?" I personally doubt oil and plug changes alone were responsible for any that did manage to make it. As for the rust issue... obviously not in your soft climate..but bring one here. Cancer will make it challenging to inspect annually as it approaches 7-10 yrs old. The closer to the coast..the worse they are.
As to the tech's response to your question, I'd say that his response pretty much applies to how any modern engine will hold up given good care. I'm not the one who does maintenance on the wife's friend's car, but I've heard her bragging on several occasions about how she's had no problems with that Max. I've been in it a couple times before, and it's a very nice car. Lastly, don't forget, the Gulf of Mexico is in fact, a little ocean. [Wink] My house is about 3/4 of a mile, maybe a tad less, as the crow flies from Escambia Bay (brackish-to-salt), and about two miles up/in from the Gulf itself. We have beaches, of course, but obviously, no road salt. Our five year old Sequoia has been to and on the beach (where appropriate, of course) on many occasions. We certainly don't drive it in the surf, but it's been covered in salty mist and sand dozens of times. Still not a hint of corrosion anywhere, including the underneath, which is as easy to inspect (and I do, regularly) given the clearance, as it was when new. Respectfully, your picture of the rusty 70s Toyota is not a fair portrayal of the present product. I was back in New Hampshire for 10 days last Christmas, and didn't see roads dominated by old domestics. Just a couple years ago or so, my step-mother traded in her old Honda Accord -- a 92 or 93 that had lived its whole life outside, and was still as solid as a rock. EDIT: I don't know the miles she had, but they were extreme, well into six-figures. She travels at least 2x per week from southern NH to Portland ME, Burlington VT, or Strubridge MA (all several hour drives). -
 
Hi I see more that a few days , and with miles of about 250-300 per day, 5x/wk.. I see some traffic. As for rust... these roads are white with the stuff whenever the brine is allowed to dry. These cars are in this corrosive solution for months and months, not just a drive to the beach so comparisons can not really be made. I suspect that maintenance on a dohc is significantly more than plugs and oil. As for the Max, let me drive it on my route for six months...it will be a very changed car when we are finished.
 
I made the beach comparison because you said, "Cancer will make it challenging to inspect annually as it approaches 7-10 yrs old. The closer to the coast..the worse they are." We're quite close to the beach, yet not even a hint of an effect from our Toyota truck (which has itself been to the road salt zone several times during winter...). Heck, when you wash this truck (maybe we get to it 4x per year...), it still shines like new. The subject Max lives at the end of a rough country road. They're further inland than we are, but I can assure you, that car, while lacking road salt exposure, still takes a daily beating. And from approx May through mid-September, our cars face a heat challenge like nothing you encounter up in the frozen North. It ain't all roses for cars down here. . .
 
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Originally posted by ekpolk: Win: The point is not that one configuration is necessarily "better" than the other, in and of itself. Each has some advantages and disadvantages.
EK, I agree with you entirely; I know you have a broad experience with contemporary engines and fully understand the relative strengths and weaknesses of the subject matter. Unfortunately, others do not and persist in portraying modern OHV engines as inferior to modern OHC engines, invariably just to get in a cheap bash at the General while it is down. GM's modern OHV V8 engines are very, very, good engines. They don't realize OHV engines are closing, if they have not already closed, the rpm gap, if that is perceived as important, and that OHV engines have stump pulling torque right off of idle. While variable valve timing, or cam phasing, helps OHC engines, I don't think they are close to matching OHV engines in this regard, at least the ones I have owned or driven. On the other hand, an OHC engine, particularly a DOHC, can never match the OHV design for light weight and compact form factor because of the intrinsic nature of an overhead cam design. I also enjoy the sound of an engine at song and I like the sound of my OHC Jaguar V12 in the 6000 rpm range, but, I gotta tell ya, the LS1 sounds pretty good up there as well .... Stop for fuel at FSM and I'll let you drive all of 'em. [Cheers!]
 
Hi My Olds sees roads that are third world in nature..from local floods to frost heaves that look like the continental divide. Some families that i must call on live on dirt/mud roads that are so rutted as to look like what the Wehrmacht was faced with in the spring of '42 in Russia. One such road..that i barely made it through, had a catepillar dozer stuck on just the day before. I got through early enough that the ground was still frozen from the night before. The few kids on that road must walk several miles to the pavement as the bus cannot traverse such conditions. In closing, no way, does your roads compare to mine. About the brine i speak of, it is because of ice and snow which is a very frequent visitor here. About 24 hrs before a storm, the DOT begins spreading a brine solution from a tank pulled behind which traffic drives through. It then drys a crusty white on all surfaces including your car. Once the storm arrives, trucks loaded with mounds of rock salt work to spread this on the road. The coast statement i made is relevant because these folks get more ice..thus the DOT uses even more salt on the roads making the situation even worse for their cars and bridges. Due to temps that often are from 0F to -25 during the nights...washing is not an option unless you dont mind waiting til spring to open the now frozen door. Bring you Toyota, which shines so nicely next to the Gulf here..and it will be negativly affected. This climate is awful for anything that moves and much which doesnt. [Smile]
 
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In closing, no way, does your roads compare to mine.
This, my fried, reveals the bias. You've never seen or been on the road I'm speaking of, yet you can make definitive comparisons. You keep explaining, as if I didn't live in New Hampshire for twenty (20) years, which I did (1963-1983). I have seen all of it, including cruising behind plows and salt trucks, while they're dispensing. Don't need to bring the Toyota, I've seen the 92/93 Honda I already described, which not only survived, but thrived on the conditions you describe. There's simply no explaining away this Honda and its extremely long, productive life. Please, of course, you should drive whatever cars you prefer, but from what I've seen of cars in New Hampshire, just a snowballs toss from Maine, your preferences are just that, not facts. I've seen too many counter-examples with my own two eyes (and, incidentally, driven a few of them myself). [Cheers!]
 
Hyundai's new <i>Lambda</i> series 3.8L V6 (DOHC) puches out 255 lb-ft. of torque without relying on a stroker design. (Can anyone say "piston slap", <i>a la</i> recent GM motors with short piston skirts to permit the stroke dimensions they carry?) Hyundai's not exactly known for ultimate engine power development, either. Time to come in from the late '40s, GM, or do you enjoy being the laughing stock of the rest of the world's current thinking in engine technology?
 
I really love driving through a puddle of salt water from melted snow. It's really good for ensuring that every crevice gets the full salt treatment.
 
Cut and paste from original post: "But its hard to have sympathy for a company that simply refuses to learn from its mistakes." So when do you think Toyota will recall ALL or ANY of their defectively engineered V6 and I4 engines from the late 90's and early 2000's? (SLUDGE) And what about "modern" engines from Honda needing periodic valve lash adjustments and timing belt replacement? How antique. You would at least think they would try to match the accomplishments of GM <cough> ECOTECH. GM did away with valve lash adjustments in the 60's.
 
Most of my relatives are from the Great White North and I can tell you with confidence that their domestics are not salt resistant. They too are gradually switching over to Toyota and Honda. Our 95 degree temperatures and 95% humidity here are nothing to sneeze at when it comes to beating on vehicles.
 
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Originally posted by Rickey: Cut and paste from original post: "But its hard to have sympathy for a company that simply refuses to learn from its mistakes." So when do you think Toyota will recall ALL or ANY of their defectively engineered V6 and I4 engines from the late 90's and early 2000's? (SLUDGE) And what about "modern" engines from Honda needing periodic valve lash adjustments and timing belt replacement? How antique. You would at least think they would try to match the accomplishments of GM ECOTECH. GM did away with valve lash adjustments in the 60's.
Well, let's see, Toyota DID extend warranty coverage for owners of affected vehicles, and if the owner shows a minimal attempt at taking care of the car, you get yours fixed, free. None of this GM "we'll pay half for a mess we caused -- you pay the rest" nonsense. Or how 'bout this: Toyota just released the "all new" 2007 Camry. After 600 V-6 cars had escaped the plant, they discovered an assembly error in the six-spd auto transmission. All affected cars are recalled for repair. Owners who have one are being given a free rental/loaner until they get their car fixed. Toyota is making their car payments until they get their car back, properly fixed. And they're giving the affected owners a free 100k mile extended warranty for their trouble. That's why they have loyal customers. GM's approach is to tell customers, "fork U, you own it now, it's your problem, oh maybe we'll pay for half of the repairs. . ." I invite you to show me an instance of GM doing something like Toyota is doing for their customers. I won't be holding my breath. . .
 
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Originally posted by GMorg: Does anyone know if there are any Graemlins of Monkey's throwing their fecal matter at each other?
No, but does this get close to the sentiment you're feeling??? -
 
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Originally posted by Rickey: And what about "modern" engines from Honda needing periodic valve lash adjustments and timing belt replacement? How antique. You would at least think they would try to match the accomplishments of GM ECOTECH. GM did away with valve lash adjustments in the 60's.
, Old "antiques" ? To this day I've never ridden in a NEWER NEAR stock car (just headers & good tires) that set me back in the seat so hard to 115 MPH, as a friends red 67 Corvette did with a 435HP/427 tri power solid lifter with 4:11 and 4 speed. Those antique solid lifter cammed motors were GM Glory days.
 
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