GM's new 10 speed. Guarantee's a fun ride.

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: supton

[quote=JHZR2] Anyhow... I too have wondered about adding a high/low range, sorta like in 4x4 trucks. My guess is the ~5% loss every time you go through a gear set is an issue. Actually I read once that close gear ratio planetaries lose quite a bit, not sure what close is though.

Been done, you know.... late 70s Plymouth Champ / Dodge Colt / Mitsubishi:

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

Originally Posted By: Smokescreen

It should be fast indeed. 10 speeds tho...might as well use a CVT. What does that give you a 500 RPM sweep per gear change? Has anyone heard what this would sound like for a muscle car? I like the longer wind up of revs...10 speeds would be so short it would sound like the same gear note the whole time?

In a 1/4 mile run I'd be willing to bet a 2 speed Power Glide will beat an 8 or 10 speed ZF in two of the same cars with the same engine. The only difference being the transmission.

Well.... not quite true. The rear gear ratio has to be right, and the torque convertor has to be very loose.. but in general you can build an ultimately faster drag-only car, keeping the engine and vehicle weight identical, with a 1-, 2-, or 3-speed automatic and a stupid high-stall-speed convertor. No question. Its horribly energy in-efficient, but it does the best job of getting down the track in a minimum time. Top-fuel is direct drive with controlled-slip clutches for much the same reason. I think the drag-prepped Camaro from just a few years ago actually still used a Powerglide, though maybe it was a TH400. The current Mopar factory Drag-Pack Challenger uses a 3-speed automatic: http://www.mopar.com/dodge/challenger/mopar-drag-pak/ And the "worlds quickest Magnum" was actually built using a modified TH400: http://moparconnectionmagazine.com/videos-record-setting-8-second-dodge-magnum-srt8/

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

Originally Posted By: Smokescreen

It should be fast indeed. 10 speeds tho...might as well use a CVT. What does that give you a 500 RPM sweep per gear change? Has anyone heard what this would sound like for a muscle car? I like the longer wind up of revs...10 speeds would be so short it would sound like the same gear note the whole time?

In a 1/4 mile run I'd be willing to bet a 2 speed Power Glide will beat an 8 or 10 speed ZF in two of the same cars with the same engine. The only difference being the transmission.

Well.... not quite true. The rear gear ratio has to be right, and the torque convertor has to be very loose.. but in general you can build an ultimately faster drag-only car, keeping the engine and vehicle weight identical, with a 1-, 2-, or 3-speed automatic and a stupid high-stall-speed convertor. No question. Its horribly energy in-efficient, but it does the best job of getting down the track in a minimum time. Top-fuel is direct drive with controlled-slip clutches for much the same reason. I think the drag-prepped Camaro from just a few years ago actually still used a Powerglide, though maybe it was a TH400. The current Mopar factory Drag-Pack Challenger uses a 3-speed automatic: http://www.mopar.com/dodge/challenger/mopar-drag-pak/ And the "worlds quickest Magnum" was actually built using a modified TH400: http://moparconnectionmagazine.com/videos-record-setting-8-second-dodge-magnum-srt8/

Nothing wrong with using a TH400 or a Torqueflite 727. They'd be even better choices, and are stronger. My point is for a muscle car that's going to be running a 1/4 mile there are better choices than a 10 speed automatic. I have quite a few fond memories of the old Powerglide and it was the first transmission that came to mind today for a "muscle car".

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

I have quite a few fond memories of the old Powerglide and it was the first transmission that came to mind today for a "muscle car".

And it still wins in drag cars (with Ford, GM, or Chrysler engines bolted to it) every day, all over the country. I totally agree that its more suited to the task than 8- 9- and 10-speed modern automatics. Beyond a certain point, having those deeper lower gear ratios get you is more spin off the line.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

I have quite a few fond memories of the old Powerglide and it was the first transmission that came to mind today for a "muscle car".

And it still wins in drag cars (with Ford, GM, or Chrysler engines bolted to it) every day, all over the country. I totally agree that its more suited to the task than 8- 9- and 10-speed modern automatics. Beyond a certain point, having those deeper lower gear ratios get you is more spin off the line.

And when they break you don't need a degree in rocket science to rebuild it!

 

[Jarlaxle]

Actually, a typical drag "Powerglide" has no GM parts in it.

 

[ZX11Rebel]

Isn't this "GM" 10 speed the transmission that was actually designed and patented by FORD in their joint venture?

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle

Actually, a typical drag "Powerglide" has no GM parts in it.

Depends on the level of competition, but even original GM Powerslide cases have to be getting hard to find by now. A Top Fuel Hemi doesn't have any Chrysler parts, either, but the basic designs of both still carry on.

 

[Silverado12]

The Gas Monkey Dart actually had the Hellcat engine w/powerglide. The Roadkill Charger had the complete Hellcat drivetrain and lost the race if my memory serves me correctly.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Silverado12

The Gas Monkey Dart actually had the Hellcat engine w/powerglide. The Roadkill Charger had the complete Hellcat drivetrain and lost the race if my memory serves me correctly.

I think your memory served you correctly. The Dart had the Powerglide and the Charger had the 8 speed ZF transmission I believe. The gas Monkey Dart won the race.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: ZX11Rebel

Isn't this "GM" 10 speed the transmission that was actually designed and patented by FORD in their joint venture?

Yes it is. They've been talking about it for years now, this is its first real world use. Rest assured, it really is a joint venture, as GM brings a lot of slushbox expertise to the table as well as Ford...

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

Originally Posted By: Silverado12

The Gas Monkey Dart actually had the Hellcat engine w/powerglide. The Roadkill Charger had the complete Hellcat drivetrain and lost the race if my memory serves me correctly.

I think your memory served you correctly. The Dart had the Powerglide and the Charger had the 8 speed ZF transmission I believe. The gas Monkey Dart won the race.

The Gas Monkey Dart is about 1000lbs lighter than a Charger.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

Been done, you know.... late 70s Plymouth Champ / Dodge Colt / Mitsubishi:

It's funny how the twin stick came about; when the transverse engine was installed with the carburetor in front of the engine there were bad icing issues. When the engine was installed with the carb at the back an additional gear set was needed to reverse the rotation for the transaxle. Mitsu figured that they'd make a two-speed setup while they were at it to increase acceleration as well as fuel economy. They were actually pretty fun cars in their day.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

Originally Posted By: sciphi

ZF is practically that good with programming their 8-speed, so it can be done.

Varies by platform. The new BMW's with the 4 cylinder turbo motors have tremendously responsive programming, so does my wife's RAM. The shifts are super quick, yet butter smooth every time. Yet members here have complained about the same unit in other cars...

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool manual transmission fan, but I am extremely impressed by the ZF 8HP45 in my M235i. It's hard to fault- regardless of whether you are just driving it in geezer mode or pounding it around a road course. The fact that it is faster AND pulls down better fuel economy numbers than the manual is just a bonus. BMW even uses a relatively stock 8HP in its turnkey M235i Racing car.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

Originally Posted By: ZX11Rebel

Isn't this "GM" 10 speed the transmission that was actually designed and patented by FORD in their joint venture?

Yes it is. They've been talking about it for years now, this is its first real world use. Rest assured, it really is a joint venture, as GM brings a lot of slushbox expertise to the table as well as Ford...

GM did invent the thing. No surprise they can contribute a lot of resources. Ford is also not the first company to use their transmission technology. BMW, Ferrari, Jaguar, Rolls, Bentley, etc.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: 69GTX

I have 6 speeds in my T56 and don't use them all. What would I do with 7 or 9?

You don't use that beautiful, .50, overdrive 6th on the highway to get >30 mpg, like all of the other LSx/T56 owners do (myself included)??

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: MCompact

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

Originally Posted By: sciphi

ZF is practically that good with programming their 8-speed, so it can be done.

Varies by platform. The new BMW's with the 4 cylinder turbo motors have tremendously responsive programming, so does my wife's RAM. The shifts are super quick, yet butter smooth every time. Yet members here have complained about the same unit in other cars...

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool manual transmission fan, but I am extremely impressed by the ZF 8HP45 in my M235i. It's hard to fault- regardless of whether you are just driving it in geezer mode or pounding it around a road course. The fact that it is faster AND pulls down better fuel economy numbers than the manual is just a bonus. BMW even uses a relatively stock 8HP in its turnkey M235i Racing car.

Is the new, actual M2, going to be offered with BOTH?

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

I have quite a few fond memories of the old Powerglide and it was the first transmission that came to mind today for a "muscle car".

And it still wins in drag cars (with Ford, GM, or Chrysler engines bolted to it) every day, all over the country. I totally agree that its more suited to the task than 8- 9- and 10-speed modern automatics. Beyond a certain point, having those deeper lower gear ratios get you is more spin off the line.

For drag racing ONLY, NO DOUBTS whatsoever! But high stall converter equipped slushboxes can be as much a pain to drive in stop and go traffic as a stiff clutch pedal manual. Also, this car, like all modern performance f bodies, is NOT only made to go fast in a straight line, or get only 5 mpg (or less).

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Silverado12

The Gas Monkey Dart actually had the Hellcat engine w/powerglide. The Roadkill Charger had the complete Hellcat drivetrain and lost the race if my memory serves me correctly.

I'm not familiar with the episode but wouldn't the Charger weigh massively more than the Dart?

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver

Is the new, actual M2, going to be offered with BOTH?

Nope; it either gets a six speed manual or the seven-speed dual-clutch transmission. If I had the coin for an M2 I'd definitely want three pedals.