Gosh DD, you're right -- I guess I'll just go out and get myself a new Oldsmobile. Oh wait -- that's right -- Oldsmobile's already gone out of business. . . Hmmmmmm, I guess they shut the business down because of all the money they were making selling the outstanding vehicles that all those customers were lining up to buy. Maybe they just got tired of making cars. . .
When is GM going to learn? (long)
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I will buy a Ford Mustang GT500. What about when the Nippon Giants buy Ford, you ask? I will give up on cars and ride my American framed racing bicycle. I REFUSE to buy a TOYota (no matter where they are screwed together).
It has crossed my mind if someone were to grow up in Germany their whole life and then traveled to US one day and rented a car they would feel like they went back quite a few decades. Seeing rear drum brakes, pushroad engines (over head cam is more efficent), 4-spd autos, torison beam rear suspension, etc. the list can go on. The only reason american cars get good fuel mileage is they have the power band low and torquey with a low compression ratio and long gears in those 4-speed autos. How boring. I like a smaller more efficent high winding motor that is getting more energy out of every gallon burned and putting out less toxins instead of using a near 4 liter V6 iron block engine to accomplish what an engine nearly half of the size could. Now I'm not saying that old-school tech can't be reliable but it's time to change!!! The LS7 is impressive but geez 7 liters!!! BMW can get the same horsepower out of an engine 2 liters smaller.
And just like that, BAM, something I can agree with you about 100%.quote:
Originally posted by dailydriver:
(...snip...)Hey, if all of you (and most of this country for that matter) can refuse to buy domestic, I can do the same for imports/import nameplates.
Now, shall we stop being nice and get our fingers back into each others' eyes???
Yeah, OK. What would you like to duel over next? How about what it's going to be like when there are NO jobs left (mfg. or service/IT) in this country for our children, screw the reasons for it, and the principals (free trade/open markets, etc.quote:
Originally posted by ekpolk:
And just like that, BAM, something I can agree with you about 100%.quote:
Originally posted by dailydriver:
(...snip...)Hey, if all of you (and most of this country for that matter) can refuse to buy domestic, I can do the same for imports/import nameplates.
Now, shall we stop being nice and get our fingers back into each others' eyes???
As has been pointed out before (and in many other threads on many different boards); OHC was around long before OHV/pushrod, so maybe OHC is "old school tech"?!
It may be 2 liters larger, but it is a much more compact powerplant with a much more usable powerband. Yes, I know it's apples to weinerschnitzel, but in the Z06 application it also gets much better mileage.
Mediocrity stinks as GM, Ford and others are finding out. As far as domestic production, that will not stop. Toyota can not build plants fast enough. I have no tolerance for mediocrity or "good enough", it sure is refreshing to see fellow Americans that feel the same way!
If you can't be quality conscious and efficient, see yaaaaaaaaaa!
Have a nice day....
If you can't be quality conscious and efficient, see yaaaaaaaaaa!
Have a nice day....
Totally agree, I feel sorry for people who stand proudly behind the American car companies! How can someone support a company who was so sleezy in terms of quality and taking care of its customers a few decades back and are not willing to invest in much but just update old technology. They see it as cents and dollars and don't want have to use anymore money than necessary. American car companies are generally an embarassment (save a few select models here and there) to the automotive world. I don't see it as being unpatriotic to not support a local business. People everyday will tend to pick the better overall company may it be a cell phone company, realtor company, insurance, etc. This is the same concept applied to automobiles.quote:
Originally posted by Amkeer:
Mediocrity stinks as GM, Ford and others are finding out. As far as domestic production, that will not stop. Toyota can not build plants fast enough. I have no tolerance for mediocrity or "good enough", it sure is refreshing to see fellow Americans that feel the same way!
If you can't be quality conscious and efficient, see yaaaaaaaaaa!
Have a nice day....
I know OHC has been out longer but I used the term "old school tech" since it has been proven in the automotive world which design is more efficent and most of the world has changed or started that way. GM is still sticking with "old school tech" as in it has been around for decades and it doesn't help they still use V6's that were based off engines used 20-30 years ago. Also, if your buying a Z06...I sorta doubt mpg's will be a large factor as I would hope someone would be using it for its true purpose and not loafing around but nonetheless yes it does give back decent mileage.quote:
Originally posted by dailydriver:
As has been pointed out before (and in many other threads on many different boards); OHC was around long before OHV/pushrod, so maybe OHC is "old school tech"?!
It may be 2 liters larger, but it is a much more compact powerplant with a much more usable powerband. Yes, I know it's apples to weinerschnitzel, but in the Z06 application it also gets much better mileage.
OHC is best in the application where you have a tiny engine winding at crazy rpm to produce the horsepower needed to keep a vehicle moving at highway speeds. That is how you take advantage of OHC's efficiency advantage over pushrods. It also sacrifices low-end torque.
Here in USA we want the low end too...so previously superefficient DOHC engines have been reworked with VTEC, increased displacement etc to provide low end power at the expense of fuel consumption.
If we didn't want the low end, yes, tiny DOHC engines would be the clear way to go. But on the American landscape the pushrod engine still survives because the OHC engines TUNED TO MIMIC its performance consume the same amount of gas or more.
[ May 04, 2006, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Matt89 ]
Here in USA we want the low end too...so previously superefficient DOHC engines have been reworked with VTEC, increased displacement etc to provide low end power at the expense of fuel consumption.
If we didn't want the low end, yes, tiny DOHC engines would be the clear way to go. But on the American landscape the pushrod engine still survives because the OHC engines TUNED TO MIMIC its performance consume the same amount of gas or more.
[ May 04, 2006, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Matt89 ]
Yeehaw! Keep buying $hi! cars to keep Americans employed!quote:
Originally posted by dailydriver:
Yeah, OK. What would you like to duel over next? How about what it's going to be like when there are NO jobs left (mfg. or service/IT) in this country for our children, screw the reasons for it, and the principals (free trade/open markets, etc.quote:
Originally posted by ekpolk:
And just like that, BAM, something I can agree with you about 100%.quote:
Originally posted by dailydriver:
(...snip...)Hey, if all of you (and most of this country for that matter) can refuse to buy domestic, I can do the same for imports/import nameplates.
Now, shall we stop being nice and get our fingers back into each others' eyes???
) behind this fact. We can only have so many doctors/lawyers when no one has jobs/money for them. Engineers will become absolete since we no longer will manufacture/produce anything. All the IT work will have long gone to India/Asia. Unless you work for foreign companies there will be no need for MBAs or such, since we will not have an economy or companies. Wow, sounds like a great future, all in the name of economic principals/consumerism.Man, I do hope your TOYotas will be worth it too "y'all" at that point in time!
OR:
Demand that the idiots running these dinosaurs step-down and hire new blood.
They CAN'T keep going this way much longer.
If you think we can't compete, then your much less an American than any of us "sellouts" that buy Japanese cars.
Scott
Ranting? Bashing? Sounds like the truth to me. All of the engine issues you mentioned I remember hearing about when they were happening. GM has survived this long because the "average" person on the street that buys GM cars/trucks is/was short on attention span and long on brand loyalty--because DAD always bought GM cars. I used to hear that last comment all the time, but not so much these days. Young consumers today don't seem as "crippled" by what dad always did as the previous generation was. And over the past 20 years or so they have increasingly bought foreign cars because the perception is that they are better, and often they are! GM and a lot of other big companies have rested on their laurels, sucked up the big bonuses and stock options; and generally robbed their companies of the very capital needed to compete in the "new world" market place. Their competitors generally haven't. The UAW also has its share of some blame too. If US automakers die, the autopsy report should fairly mention all the self-inflicted wounds, cuts, and bruises caused by their long slow motion fall from the top--with a push or two from their friends! Just MHO.
Never saw a door sag on an Import. Seen it so much on domestics, I figure it's a design feature. My cousin's '96 T-Bird had a sagging door so bad, it broke off and the jamb/hindge had to be re-done. Had to picture this happening on a 1996 Asian or European car. I head of a door falling off a PT Crusier too.
Hi
Here is what i have percieved
over the last 15 yrs...
In 1990 I was driving a 1989 Olds 98 Regency Brougham. In the 250,000 miles I drove the car, it needed the following:
Steering rack
ball joint - rt side.
alternator
The car hit two deer, so a hood, fender and grillwork was needed.
Car was struck from behind (soft hit) needed bumper cover and chrome.
I remember replacing the ign module around 150,000. The original Series I engine and 440T4 transaxle was in it when traded at 250,000 miles.
I had the car refinished after the second and final doe. There was never any corrosion on car.
The car finished its days as a "runner" for a local dealership. They took it to Boston once a week to the auctions with drivers. It had over 300,000 last I heard which was late 90's.
The next car was a 1995 Olds Royal 88 with Series II engine. I drover it to over 265,000 before it was hit hard at the mall by a SUV around Christmas.
During that car's stay..I replaced the following...
alternator
steering rack
p/w switch-rt side/frnt
The current one I have had for several yrs.
I replaced the alternator as preventative last summer at 173,000. I may need to replace the compressor as its cluch is a bit noisey...but at 220,000..who cares.
I did do a LIM and UIM replacement last year using the Aluminum upper, so any intake issues are now long gone.
In short..with No RUST...No rattles, even ball joints and rack are original at 220,000 miles, who can complain about any of these cars?
265,000 + 250,000 + 220,000 = 735,000 miles of nothing but routine maintenace and no rust.
In the conditions i operate in..i just dont think the rice will cut the mustard.
BTW, In 1983, I bought at auction a 1982 ElDorado. I drove that car 5yrs and never had a sagging door. Go figure?
Here is what i have percieved
over the last 15 yrs...
In 1990 I was driving a 1989 Olds 98 Regency Brougham. In the 250,000 miles I drove the car, it needed the following:
Steering rack
ball joint - rt side.
alternator
The car hit two deer, so a hood, fender and grillwork was needed.
Car was struck from behind (soft hit) needed bumper cover and chrome.
I remember replacing the ign module around 150,000. The original Series I engine and 440T4 transaxle was in it when traded at 250,000 miles.
I had the car refinished after the second and final doe. There was never any corrosion on car.
The car finished its days as a "runner" for a local dealership. They took it to Boston once a week to the auctions with drivers. It had over 300,000 last I heard which was late 90's.
The next car was a 1995 Olds Royal 88 with Series II engine. I drover it to over 265,000 before it was hit hard at the mall by a SUV around Christmas.
During that car's stay..I replaced the following...
alternator
steering rack
p/w switch-rt side/frnt
The current one I have had for several yrs.
I replaced the alternator as preventative last summer at 173,000. I may need to replace the compressor as its cluch is a bit noisey...but at 220,000..who cares.
I did do a LIM and UIM replacement last year using the Aluminum upper, so any intake issues are now long gone.
In short..with No RUST...No rattles, even ball joints and rack are original at 220,000 miles, who can complain about any of these cars?
265,000 + 250,000 + 220,000 = 735,000 miles of nothing but routine maintenace and no rust.
In the conditions i operate in..i just dont think the rice will cut the mustard.
BTW, In 1983, I bought at auction a 1982 ElDorado. I drove that car 5yrs and never had a sagging door. Go figure?
Hi
With 220,000 miles on my lowly Olds, you would think "conditions would be right"...? But the only thing to belie my car's miles is the poor paint.
Scratches galore due to the back roads and even branches from trees as i have had to squeeze past spots where the road has turned to open bogs.
That you compare red clay or mud if you will..with roads so bad that only skidders frequent them is beyond funny.
Your car , in as much as climatic conditions is concerned, has a soft life.
Any further comments to attempt to dramatize the harshness of your state's sand beaches with our third world back roads and 5 month brine bath only proves to illustrate my point.
As far as the L36 intake leak, what could be an easier fix? Doen correctly, it is good for 150,000 miles of additional use.
Corrosive Cancer cannot be cured..only delayed through prompt body shop intervention.
However, there are many guys getting far more that 260 hp (L32) out of these things at tracks all across the nation. There is so much aftermarket support its amazing what is out there. ZZPerformance has a turbo kit for the L36 which increases HP another 100, plus stroker kits and such. There are re-designed/engineered 4t65E transaxels which are built to stand 400+ hp.
These 3800's are capable of much more than the General sent them out with. But perhaps their ability to do the 3-400 hp is one of the reasons why they last so long?
With 220,000 miles on my lowly Olds, you would think "conditions would be right"...? But the only thing to belie my car's miles is the poor paint.
Scratches galore due to the back roads and even branches from trees as i have had to squeeze past spots where the road has turned to open bogs.
That you compare red clay or mud if you will..with roads so bad that only skidders frequent them is beyond funny.
Your car , in as much as climatic conditions is concerned, has a soft life.
Any further comments to attempt to dramatize the harshness of your state's sand beaches with our third world back roads and 5 month brine bath only proves to illustrate my point.
As far as the L36 intake leak, what could be an easier fix? Doen correctly, it is good for 150,000 miles of additional use.
Corrosive Cancer cannot be cured..only delayed through prompt body shop intervention.
My neighbor and I live in a metro area. He works in an office and thus, his car sees roads very much differently than mine. His car is corroding just from brine from paved roads, mine is not.
Perhaps so, but I think that GM stopped development yrs ago on the 90 degree engines due to future packaging issues in favor of a 660 design.
However, there are many guys getting far more that 260 hp (L32) out of these things at tracks all across the nation. There is so much aftermarket support its amazing what is out there. ZZPerformance has a turbo kit for the L36 which increases HP another 100, plus stroker kits and such. There are re-designed/engineered 4t65E transaxels which are built to stand 400+ hp.
These 3800's are capable of much more than the General sent them out with. But perhaps their ability to do the 3-400 hp is one of the reasons why they last so long?
I think GM is trying to improve on quality. I just bought a 06 Pontiac vibe on 3/23/06; (Yes, I know it's a toyota matrix) I sent in the survey a few weeks ago. I got a call today from "pontiac engineering" asking if I had problems with the car; Asking me how many miles I had on the car, Any problems with the engine/transmission, road noise, gauges, interior features. if any, offered me someone to contact to get any problems resolved. They asked if it was ok to contact me later in the future to follow the progress of the vehicle. I said yes.
I had really bad luck with my 96 Saab 900s. It left me stranded twice and failed California emissions because nobody could solve the faulty cam sensor code after $3000, and this problem I had within one week of buying the car new. I only got 129,000 miles on it, a well maintained car sacrificed to the smog czars for a problem that did not cause any smog. Saab ( GM) never tried to fix the car when it was under warranty.Do I buy another GM car?
On the other hand...Toyota and Honda also make some real lemons. Honda DOES try to weasel out of warranty work, Toyota seems to really be good about warranties.
GM executives need to stop blaming the unions for all their problems. The last claim, that unions were getting $75 per hour is such a blatant lie, how can you trust anything they say? Ask any GM hourly worker what their benefits are, medical and retirement benefits add about $12 per hour to their paychecks at the most. Remember when the papers reported that union employees were getting $75 per hour, the papers merely reported what GM executives said. The papers did not verify their claims.The Wall Steet Journal staff expressed their opinions on the $75 per hour claims...When you pour out the ** like that your credibility suffers.No wonder Wall Street is skeptical about current GM management.
The unions need to provide motivated and trained workers. Union labor should be synonomous with the best, not the most obstinate.
On the other hand...Toyota and Honda also make some real lemons. Honda DOES try to weasel out of warranty work, Toyota seems to really be good about warranties.
GM executives need to stop blaming the unions for all their problems. The last claim, that unions were getting $75 per hour is such a blatant lie, how can you trust anything they say? Ask any GM hourly worker what their benefits are, medical and retirement benefits add about $12 per hour to their paychecks at the most. Remember when the papers reported that union employees were getting $75 per hour, the papers merely reported what GM executives said. The papers did not verify their claims.The Wall Steet Journal staff expressed their opinions on the $75 per hour claims...When you pour out the ** like that your credibility suffers.No wonder Wall Street is skeptical about current GM management.
The unions need to provide motivated and trained workers. Union labor should be synonomous with the best, not the most obstinate.
What UAW loyalty? Delphi's workers don't seem to mind sticking it to their brethren at GM:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/04/business/delphi.php
After one of these BITOG GM threads, I asked six staffers at work what they thought of GM and Ford. As I thought, the four younger workers didn't care - they wouldn't buy a GM, Ford, or Chrysler vehicle under any condition. That is for idiots (like me). Strangely, two older employees, one owns a Buick, and the other a Honda now but Fords before, said they will NEVER again buy an American car. It's Toyota or Honda from now on. If they ever have real money, its a Lexus. Period. All of them expect Ford and GM to go bankrupt. None will shed a tear.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/04/business/delphi.php
After one of these BITOG GM threads, I asked six staffers at work what they thought of GM and Ford. As I thought, the four younger workers didn't care - they wouldn't buy a GM, Ford, or Chrysler vehicle under any condition. That is for idiots (like me). Strangely, two older employees, one owns a Buick, and the other a Honda now but Fords before, said they will NEVER again buy an American car. It's Toyota or Honda from now on. If they ever have real money, its a Lexus. Period. All of them expect Ford and GM to go bankrupt. None will shed a tear.
I bought a brand new 2005 Chevy Silverado in May of 2005.
To-date, I have had the truck in for warranty work on four separate occasions:
(1) Replace the "cluster" in the dashboard, which made a ticking sound whenever the HVAC was working
(2) Replace the low pressure switch, when the A/C would begin to blow hot air for no apparent reason; this problem has since recurred, but the dealer claims they can't do anything about it if it isn't happening when they see the vehicle
(3) Replace the clutch disk, plate and cylinder when the clutch began sticking - the dealer found a "red, foreign material" in the cylinder which had obviously been there since it was assembled in the factory, so the whole thing needed to be replaced
(4) Rebuild the transmission because the end-bearings had too much play and began to rattle around whenever the truck was put into gear.
The truck currently only has 31K miles, and my warranty is up at 36K. I am lucky to have had these problems occur under warranty.
I will never buy another GM product after this truck. I have owned European and Japanese cars, and I have never experienced this total lack of quality.
To-date, I have had the truck in for warranty work on four separate occasions:
(1) Replace the "cluster" in the dashboard, which made a ticking sound whenever the HVAC was working
(2) Replace the low pressure switch, when the A/C would begin to blow hot air for no apparent reason; this problem has since recurred, but the dealer claims they can't do anything about it if it isn't happening when they see the vehicle
(3) Replace the clutch disk, plate and cylinder when the clutch began sticking - the dealer found a "red, foreign material" in the cylinder which had obviously been there since it was assembled in the factory, so the whole thing needed to be replaced
(4) Rebuild the transmission because the end-bearings had too much play and began to rattle around whenever the truck was put into gear.
The truck currently only has 31K miles, and my warranty is up at 36K. I am lucky to have had these problems occur under warranty.
I will never buy another GM product after this truck. I have owned European and Japanese cars, and I have never experienced this total lack of quality.
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