What makes SuperTech Synthetic "cheap"

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Originally Posted By: car51
Also a single VOA doesn't tell us anything; don't forget that


If a single VOA tells us nothing, why does PQIA even bother doing their single groups of oil analysis? It would seem to me a number of enthusiasts seem to think there is some value to these one time analysis. Hasn't PQIA labeled some oils as unsuitable for use based on such single VOA's?

When once is better than nothing
 
Originally Posted By: Justin251
They are targeting a consumer group that wants good enough not best there is.


Wholeheartedly agree.. yet ST is too expensive for this purpose, especially after rebates on premier syn brands.
 
Originally Posted By: Y_K
Originally Posted By: Justin251
They are targeting a consumer group that wants good enough not best there is.


Wholeheartedly agree.. yet ST is too expensive for this purpose, especially after rebates on premier syn brands.


I don't think those same people stalk the Mobil 1 website. lol

They ain't us.
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
All oils are not created equal.


Thank goodness for that!

I had a nightmare the other night about walking into Walmart and the store was wall-to-wall Mobil 1.
 
That kind of mileage on bulk oil and jobber filters is impressive.
It's more a matter of the highway miles than Toyota engineering, though.
The scientist in you may say that all oils will function the same in the real world, but the existence of more stringent maker's certs argues otherwise.
Would companies like DB, BMW, Porsche and VAG have gone to the expense of creating, validating and updating certs for their vehicles if all oils really did function the same in the real world?
Did GM create dexos just for fun?
Clearly, the manufacturers have found that the API, ILSAC and ACEA minimums may not be sufficient for their engines in real world use.
In the case of your cars, none of this apparently mattered, so you've perhaps drawn a conclusion based upon your personal experience.
 
Originally Posted By: Justin251
Originally Posted By: NMBurb02
Originally Posted By: Justin251
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
XOM recommends 10K drains with M1.
Nobody makes any such recommendations for ST nor for any other store brand syn.
IOW, it isn't me making any claim.
Draw your own conclusions.
Your money, your engines, your worries.
Lots of things that are important are not included in API specs, which is the reason that more stringent maker's certs exist.
OTOH, two of your three Toys have exceeded their design life expectancy by a considerable number of miles.
What oil do you use and how long do you run it?


That's because walmart, autozone, etc Are in the selling oil/products business not extending your oci business.

The extended oci is what is selling these oils for mobil, castrol, and pennzoil. Pricepoint is what is selling the in house Warren oils like supertech.

They don't care about the extended oci because thier intended target doesn't either. They are targeting a consumer group that wants good enough not best there is.

And that goes back to the OP's original question:

Originally Posted By: Rex
So what makes this oil cost lower than the others?

And the answer is: because it is designed to be "good enough" and "not the best there is". fdcg27 is just pointing out that one is better than the other and that there is nothing wrong with saying that. The same goes with many things. Some auto parts are better designed and manufactured than others, which is often reflected in the price. Do I need a new alternator that can last 300,000 miles? I doubt it because my vehicles likely won't last that long, but what is wrong with someone making one and charging more for it?


Nothing wrong at all. I'm just saying that in house oils like supertech shouldn't be compared in the grand scheme because they are aimed at two entirely different demographics with two entirely different price points.

It's cheaper because it's designed to meet a price point that's profitable and still good enough for the average consumer without damaging a vehicle.

Pretty simple. Better or worse is all relative.


Okay, if a house brand Grp III is good enough, then why pay more for ST when Farm & Fleet, Rural King and Meijer often have their Grp III house brands on sale for less coin?
For that matter, if good enough is all you seek, then why not just use the least costly API SN oil?
Finally, when you can load up on M1 or D1 for ten bucks a jug or less by stacking store deals and rebates, why even bother with any store brand syn?
I guess I can't see where the value proposition of ST makes any sense.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: tig1
All oils are not created equal.
Thank goodness for that! I had a nightmare the other night about walking into Walmart and the store was wall-to-wall Mobil 1.
Yes and your engine would last just as long (if not longer) with M1 versus any other oil--right?
 
Originally Posted By: Y_K
Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
As for the wear claims on your bottle, they only claim to exceed the SN specs for wear, really just marketing hyperbole, since every motor oil has to exceed SN ... to be an "SN" oil.

Nope. That's not what on the bottle.. Reading comprehension and attention span let you down.
I haven't seen the results, I haven't even looked for them, but that is not what they claim on the bottle.

I see you're good at being rude, like a hobby of yours maybe?
grin.gif

Noticed you didn't say exactly what you allegedly read on a Pennzoil Platinum oil bottle, so I'll tell you: "Unsurpassed wear protection based on Sequence IVA wear test using 5w-30." The sequence iva in SN is a pass/fail criteria for certification, and Pennzoil puts that verbiage on ALL their PCMO products across the board, merely saying it all passes SN.
 
Irony of this thread. Most people discussing the finer differences between ST and name brand oils (ST is made by some name brand oil maker anyway) won't keep their cars long enough for it to make any difference which oil they use. Unless you're going to at least 200,000, I doubt it makes any difference at all which synthetic oil you use and it may not make much difference which oil you use anyway unless you have long change intervals or have a turbo. If Valvoline is willing to actually put a guarantee on engine failure on their oil, they know this too. And also, it shows almost any synthetic oil is good enough in a non turbo environment. Valvoline full synthetic high mileage is one of the cheapest oils, $22 and change for 5 quarts ship to store at Walmart.
 
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Wow, this thread is very interesting. Not from an actual oil point of view, but from an audience polarization point of view. I did not know how strong the M-1 hype had gotten into the oil crowd... Or how strong the "Save $2 thing" was in the world.

$2, who cares, you could save that any day by waiting 20 minutes and driving home to make a sandwich instead of grabbing a burger ...

M-1 is the best - I don't think so ... It's good, but it has formulation changes and some oops along the way. Ultra may be a better all around syn... And a lot of the older stuff running out there has no business running straight syn's anyway.

Mobil knows that the only way to make the price point on M-1 palatable is to extend the OCI. They also know that any wear from dirty/contaminated/delpleted oil will be so small that it will only show up somewhere out around 200K+ miles. And the owner that runs M-1 would not likely keep an original motor that long, so they (Mobil) will never hear about "premature" engine death ...

I do run my lightweight vehicles to 250K, and beyond. I have 300K badge from Volvo for my last 240 Turbo. It never saw M-1 or ST in its whole life, or the Sirocco before it, or the BMW that came after it, or now my Saab 95 turbo. They all got HDEO's. But that's another whole thread ...

There is so much passion in this thread for reasoned arguments and just plain stabs in the dark, it's awe inspiring. I thought I might actually find out about the make-up of ST here, but only one post really delves into the chemistry...
 
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Yeah oil threads are deep dark well of speculation. I can only really conclude some probably have more detergents than others but they all meet spec if they read that they meet spec on the bottle.
 
Unless you're going to at least 200,000, I doubt it makes any difference at all which synthetic oil you use and it may not make much difference which oil you use anyway unless you have long change intervals or have a turbo. If Valvoline is willing to actually put a guarantee on engine failure on their oil, they know this too.

Valvoline 150K/225K/300K mileage guarantee and full details

There are plenty of "conditions" in that contract. Only engine oil lubricated parts are covered (not timing chain). Cross fluid contamination is not covered. Nor are failures of other systems that lead to engine failure. No diesel engines or turbos allowed. Engine must be 100% factory stock. That disqualifies any one that put an after-market fresh air lid on their car or even a different rated thermostat. If you ever "race" your car (whatever that means), you're disqualified. A factory engine "defect" is disqualified. But, you can't find that out until the engine fails. I suspect there are a lot more OEM engine defects than there are OEM oil defects.

I would imagine that springing for 3K-4K oil changes (regardless if using Valvoline conv or syntec) at a Valvoline sponsored dealership would end up costing you thousands by the time you reach those intervals. There's also a clause to do required "maintenance" on your vehicle. So allowing things to fester could void the warranty. Every receipt must be kept or logged with Valvoline. There's so much required to meet all the T&C's of that offer than almost no cars would be left standing should an engine fail before reaching the mileage limit. In reading the entire offer, it seems to me it's more about counting on 95% or higher attrition than it is about the type/brand of oil. I did find it interesting that they give you 3 slip ups along the way. So 3X you can stretch the oil change to 5,999 miles and still be covered. Failure to document an oil change within 90 days also counts as a slip up. I've had about 10% of my 2 dozen or so auto engines fail on me over the past 38 years....none due to oil lubrication on its own.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: Justin251
Originally Posted By: NMBurb02
Originally Posted By: Justin251
fdcg27 said:
XOM recommends 10K drains with M1.
Nobody makes any such recommendations for ST nor for any other store brand syn.
IOW, it isn't me making any claim.
Draw your own conclusions.
Your money, your engines, your worries.
Lots of things that are important are not included in API specs, which is the reason that more stringent maker's certs exist.
OTOH, two of your three Toys have exceeded their design life expectancy by a considerable number of miles.
What oil do you use and how long do you run it?


That's because walmart, autozone, etc Are in the selling oil/products business not extending your oci business.

The extended oci is what is selling these oils for mobil, castrol, and pennzoil. Pricepoint is what is selling the in house Warren oils like supertech.

They don't care about the extended oci because thier intended target doesn't either. They are targeting a consumer group that wants good enough not best there is.

And that goes back to the OP's original question:

Originally Posted By: Rex
So what makes this oil cost lower than the others?

And the answer is: because it is designed to be "good enough" and "not the best there is". fdcg27 is just pointing out that one is better than the other and that there is nothing wrong with saying that. The same goes with many things. Some auto parts are better designed and manufactured than others, which is often reflected in the price. Do I need a new alternator that can last 300,000 miles? I doubt it because my vehicles likely won't last that long, but what is wrong with someone making one and charging more for it?


Nothing wrong at all. I'm just saying that in house oils like supertech shouldn't be compared in the grand scheme because they are aimed at two entirely different demographics with two entirely different price points.

It's cheaper because it's designed to meet a price point that's profitable and still good enough for the average consumer without damaging a vehicle.

Pretty simple. Better or worse is all relative.


Okay, if a house brand Grp III is good enough, then why pay more for ST when Farm & Fleet, Rural King and Meijer often have their Grp III house brands on sale for less coin?
For that matter, if good enough is all you seek, then why not just use the least costly API SN oil?
Finally, when you can load up on M1 or D1 for ten bucks a jug or less by stacking store deals and rebates, why even bother with any store brand syn?
I guess I can't see where the value proposition of ST makes any sense.
Click to expand...

I'm not disagreeing. I never recommend st because you can get higher tier for cheaper or the same price.

On the other hand I've only learned about these rebates on this site because people here care about that stuff and went to the Mobil /pennzoil website and seen it.

I've literally never seen the pennzoil or mobil rebates advertised anywhere else aside from retailer specific sales.

When a regular person sees mobil 1 or pp or edge for almost $10 a quart and then st or a store brand for $5 a quart that's what they go buy.

A BITOG member is not a typical customer.
 
Yes. And rebates are OK, but they are also kind of a PITA. You have to wait up to 2 months to get paid. And keep copies until you get paid, ETC.
 
I also keep my cars well past 200K.
The last runner I sold had 207K at the time, a couple of years ago and it's still running around today.
I know the buyer, so I'm kept abreast of how it's doing.
It spent most of its last 140K in my hands on PP, with occasional runs of M1 and GC.
HDEOs are a no-go here due to cold winters, unless you spring for a 5W-40 and if you're spending that kind of money, you may as well just buy the appropriate grade of PCMO synthetic.
Also, I'm not sure that current HDEOs, with much lower additive levels and TBNs than those of yore are really any improvement over any decent PCMO in an SI application. High TBNs are no longer needed with ULSD and high metallic add levels are no longer possible with diesel exhaust aftertreatment systems.
WRT M1, we have at least one member here, who posted earlier in this thread, who does keep his cars at least 200K.
He runs M1 on 10K drains and has done so for years, so I don't think that the claim of 10K drains on M1 is mere fairy dust.
There are numerous examples of members who run drains in excess of 10K on a regular basis on synthetic oils with good results. See the UOA forum for examples.
Finally, a $23.00-$26.00 price point for a typical name brand PCMO synthetic is hardly a deal-breaker, even for those who change at far less than 10K miles.
You'll spend that amount of money on fuel in four hundred miles of driving a 30 mpg car.
Also, the marginal cost is more like ten or twelve bucks over the least costly API SN oils out there.
Those who pay attention can run M1 or other name brand synthetics for no more than the cost of the cheapest API SN available just by taking advantage of deals and MIRs anyway.
I think that you do get what you pay for in any engine oil, as is typically the case with any good you purchase.
Whether the marginal cost exceeds the marginal benefit is another question.
 
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