What makes SuperTech Synthetic "cheap"

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Originally Posted By: Falken
How do you make cheap oil expensive with Marketing?

Ask Castrol.
Ja und Sie add a premium for "German" which the Dieter car boys love.
 
Economies of scale. Effectively controlling COL. Slim margins.

Expect more, pay less? Whoops that's another retailer.
Plain wrap, 'scotch buy' and house brand items are almost always less expensive, yes?

M1 0W-40 was the first item I ever purchased from WallyWorld.
WM is still the pricing benchmark standard for almost all motor oils imho.
 
Originally Posted By: splinter
Economies of scale. Effectively controlling COL. Slim margins.

Expect more, pay less? Whoops that's another retailer.
Plain wrap, 'scotch buy' and house brand items are almost always less expensive, yes?

M1 0W-40 was the first item I ever purchased from WallyWorld.
WM is still the pricing benchmark standard for almost all motor oils imho.

They compete with Amazon and often beat them with their on the shelf price. Check the non sale Amazom prices on your favorite synthetics. The only one which is consistently good is T6.
 
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
They compete with Amazon and often beat them with their on the shelf price. Check the non sale Amazom prices on your favorite synthetics.
The only one which is consistently good is T6.

Yeah but Amazon (I shop there, too) doesn't let me fondle the bottles before checkout!
 
Thanks fdcg27,

Thinking this was where I intended to head with my question. Optimal basestock could add additional cost resulting in an oil providing some advantage over a basic API oil that doesn't offer extended OCI or protection. Although extending the OCI could result in cost savings over 10K but that discussion is for another thread..

ST does offer an impressive VOA. Which was part of my original point in that it offered a solid basestock, yet was lower in cost. Could we have both of two good things or maybe ST is lacking an additional additive package that would add to the cost?


Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I'd doubt that there is as much cost in this oil as there is in a jug of M1, PP or any other name brand.
There is also likely a more optimal basestock blend used in those oils formulated by companies that actually produce basestocks as opposed to those who have to buy all they use, but the differences in use would be very subtle.
ST is no doubt still a solid oil and would work just fine in most of the applications people put M1, PP or any other name brand in.
There are other house brand oils with what appear to be very similar formulations that are often priced even lower on sale, like the synthetics from Meijer and Rural King.
None of these store brand oils are bargain priced M1 equivalents IMHO but all of them meet current API specs and will work just fine in the engines that most drivers have.
One counter that you'll get from many members is that when you spread the marginal cost of a name brand oil over an OCI, the savings to be had with a store brand are nugatory.
XOM also recommends any flavor of M1 you'll find on the shelves at Walmart for at least 10K miles of use.
No such claim is made for ST or any other house brand oil.
 
Originally Posted By: Rex
Cheap might be defined differently in this question and the reason I ask. Either its a top rated oil with a lower profit expectation with savings passed over to the consumer, or cheap means oil quality is lowered making it cheaper to manufacturer.

I know the VOA is very impressive with a solid TBN number and other solid factors.

So what makes this oil cost lower than the others?


Super Tech is a top rated oil like all the other oils on the market. Top rated meaning, API-SN

Its that simple, however some people choose to pay 20 to 700 % more for oil because of unproven marketing they think the oil that is 20 to 700 % more expensive is better. But its only better for the oil company to make massive profits.

Its just marketing that makes people feel better and allows the company to extract more money from the customer's pocket. This is ALL industries, not just oil.

Red Line - Mobil 1 - Lucas - Quaker State - Pennzoil - Valvoline, etc, etc ... where is the proof? Do these companies EVER supply you with any facts and real API tests showing their oil surpasses API specs? Nope

Am I saying dont buy brand name products? Not at all, but the question is, why is Super Tech cheaper, well the answer is above. If choosing a brand name, then pick how much more market up that you want to pay 20% ? 700% ?
I may at times choose the 20% to feel better, such as Valvoline, which I personally feel is unrated compared to the others but again, no proof...

I do find it AMAZING how people pay money for a product that cost 700% more, think its better but have no proof but hearsay and marketing. Never any factual data from the API testing standards or any standard, just words and billboards at race tracks.
 
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Read the labels. Note that both oils have the same specs. But the price is a buck less. My first BMW had an external oil leak that lost a qt every 1500 miles. Easily managed and further investigation revealed it was a design flaw making a head gasket replacement not a sure cure. So I went to Super Tech and added 200 K miles to an engine with 150 k on it already. No, I didn't have a UOA done. No, I didn't do any wear tests on used parts, I just commuted for 12 yrs without a single breakdown, let alone an oil related failure.
grin2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Originally Posted By: Rex
Cheap might be defined differently in this question and the reason I ask. Either its a top rated oil with a lower profit expectation with savings passed over to the consumer, or cheap means oil quality is lowered making it cheaper to manufacturer.

I know the VOA is very impressive with a solid TBN number and other solid factors.

So what makes this oil cost lower than the others?


Super Tech is a top rated oil like all the other oils on the market. Top rated meaning, API-SN

Its that simple, however some people choose to pay 20 to 700 % more for oil because of unproven marketing they think the oil that is 20 to 700 % more expensive is better. But its only better for the oil company to make massive profits.

Its just marketing that makes people feel better and allows the company to extract more money from the customer's pocket. This is ALL industries, not just oil.

Red Line - Mobil 1 - Lucas - Quaker State - Pennzoil - Valvoline, etc, etc ... where is the proof? Do these companies EVER supply you with any facts and real API tests showing their oil surpasses API specs? Nope

Am I saying dont buy brand name products? Not at all, but the question is, why is Super Tech cheaper, well the answer is above. If choosing a brand name, then pick how much more market up that you want to pay 20% ? 700% ?
I may at times choose the 20% to feel better, such as Valvoline, which I personally feel is unrated compared to the others but again, no proof...

I do find it AMAZING how people pay money for a product that cost 700% more, think its better but have no proof but hearsay and marketing. Never any factual data from the API testing standards or any standard, just words and billboards at race tracks.
You are correct. THEN they put the stuff in baffed out Civics with FC mufflers hanging by a thread.
 
Most of the "proof" lies in performance in various tests that goes well beyond the rather basic requirements of API SN.
Things like NOACK, MRV, CCV as well as things that are harder to measure like shearing and TBN retention.
These are all strongly influenced by the basestock blend used.
There's also purity to consider.
IOW, how much unwanted metal content does one find in the virgin oil?
This is mainly a matter of the cleanliness of the blending and bottling lines as well as how the basestock was transported and stored prior to use.
To say that the only difference between something like Red Line or M1 and ST is in the marketing is just plain silly.
One question that does nag a bit is whether these inexpensive store brand Grp IIIs offer any advantage over the best Grp IIs.
Are you really ahead paying a bit more for a store brand synthetic than a jug or QSGB or PYB?
I really don't know.
 
Cheap simply because of the following:

(1) WM doesn't have to throw in millions of dollars in TV prime time section to secure regular viewing ads.

(2) WM sells volumes, not like your mom-n-pop boutique parts shop where they only see their oils on shelves moving once in a while (and that can be a "long, long" while).

The way I interpret this is that WM's syn oil is somewhat closer to the reality of what the commodity (finished product) should be selling, retail pricing wise. Anything such as boutique syn oils, etc. they betta find some betta justifications as to why some of they would try to fetch a king's ransom for the finished retail product they are asking for...

brain-washing ads, anyone?

Q
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
it's less expensive than your name brand oil because you're not paying for a bunch of ridiculous advertising.
this, I don't know how people overlook this factor.
 
Originally Posted By: alarmguy

Red Line - Mobil 1 - Lucas - Quaker State - Pennzoil - Valvoline, etc, etc ... where is the proof? Do these companies EVER supply you with any facts and real API tests showing their oil surpasses API specs? Nope


SOPUS (Pennzoil) used ILSAC GF–5, ASTM Sequence IIIG piston deposit tests, revealed in pictures at http://synthetics.pennzoil.com/ to state:
"Pennzoil Ultra Platinum™ keeps pistons up to 25% cleaner than Mobil 1; and up to 35% cleaner than Valvoline® SynPower®. Pennzoil Platinum® keeps pistons up to 8% cleaner than Mobil 1; and up to 17% cleaner than Valvoline® SynPower®." They used to include Castrol Edge in that, not any more for some reason (maybe formula change at Castrol?).

Amsoil showed the Seq IIIG at https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g3320.pdf

Once in a while Seq IVA cam wear tests are divulged, showing synthetics doing well:

artwor55.gif


Kendall released some results: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1700659/1

More at http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g3115.pdf

Castrol SynBlend (now replaced by Magnatec) claimed Seq IVA below around 20 on their bottles a while back.
 
Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
...Castrol SynBlend (now replaced by Magnatec) claimed Seq IVA below around 20 on their bottles a while back.


I enjoy reading your PCMO (and OT!) posts. Thanks.
 
Originally Posted By: 01_celica_gt
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
it's less expensive than your name brand oil because you're not paying for a bunch of ridiculous advertising.
this, I don't know how people overlook this factor.


Sure, and let's not forget all of the money companies like XOM and RDS waste on silly things like R&D, labs and cracking plants.
Walmart cleverly avoids all of these costly frills.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Most of the "proof" lies in performance in various tests that goes well beyond the rather basic requirements of API SN.
Things like NOACK, MRV, CCV as well as things that are harder to measure like shearing and TBN retention.
These are all strongly influenced by the basestock blend used.
There's also purity to consider.
IOW, how much unwanted metal content does one find in the virgin oil?
This is mainly a matter of the cleanliness of the blending and bottling lines as well as how the basestock was transported and stored prior to use.
To say that the only difference between something like Red Line or M1 and ST is in the marketing is just plain silly.
One question that does nag a bit is whether these inexpensive store brand Grp IIIs offer any advantage over the best Grp IIs.
Are you really ahead paying a bit more for a store brand synthetic than a jug or QSGB or PYB?
I really don't know.


Lots of things to consider ... but no one has any proof, all marketing, unless there is proof.
Silly? only thing silly is marketing, unless it is proven. Then the question would beg, is it worth 700% more or just 20% more?
 
Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Originally Posted By: alarmguy

Red Line - Mobil 1 - Lucas - Quaker State - Pennzoil - Valvoline, etc, etc ... where is the proof? Do these companies EVER supply you with any facts and real API tests showing their oil surpasses API specs? Nope


SOPUS (Pennzoil) used ILSAC GF–5, ASTM Sequence IIIG piston deposit tests, revealed in pictures at http://synthetics.pennzoil.com/ to state:
"Pennzoil Ultra Platinum™ keeps pistons up to 25% cleaner than Mobil 1; and up to 35% cleaner than Valvoline® SynPower®. Pennzoil Platinum® keeps pistons up to 8% cleaner than Mobil 1; and up to 17% cleaner than Valvoline® SynPower®." They used to include Castrol Edge in that, not any more for some reason (maybe formula change at Castrol?).

Amsoil showed the Seq IIIG at https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g3320.pdf

Once in a while Seq IVA cam wear tests are divulged, showing synthetics doing well:

artwor55.gif


Kendall released some results: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1700659/1

More at http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g3115.pdf

Castrol SynBlend (now replaced by Magnatec) claimed Seq IVA below around 20 on their bottles a while back.


But the question still begs for an answer, where is the proof? Its EASY to pull out ONE test where an oil exceeds another, like piston deposits, so what? I could most likely add clorox to my oil and clean my engine at a drastic cost of wear.

ALL I AM suggesting, is if someone is going to buy an oil at a premium price, make that company prove to you that it exceeds other oils in the COMPLETE SERIES OF API standard/tests and European tests, thing is, most cant. Hmmm ... NONE CAN because no oil company publishes their COMPLETE results against all other oils, so you are only buying marketing.

I will grant one hooray to Amsoil, the ONLY oil company that publishes some series of tests.
 
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