What LL01 to try next?

[f355spider]

M1 ESP 0W-30 doesnt carry a LL01 or LL04 so it didnt make my list. Only the 5W-30 appears to carry LL04.

Went with the castrol 0w-40 this time around.

I am curious why BMW hasnt approved LL04 for the US. I poked around a bit and it looks like 10ppm is the target but there still exists a credit system in the US where fuel suppliers can go over by burning credits. I wonder if BMW isnt comfortable with this vs a hard limit. IE in 2023 ~56billion gallons on the market were above 10ppm and 70.2 billion were below. Perhaps you can have a issue with LLO4 oil if you are in a spot in the market where the higher sulfur fuel ends up.

Great information...what would be interesting to know, is when refiners go over the limit, how much over are they going? The max is 80ppm...but are they actually that high, or only 30ppm or something?

Also, it would interesting to know which refiners are using the most credits each year? And in what geographical locations?

 

[chris719]

Ravenol VMP 5W30. All PAO.

Not LL01 and there's no oil that is all PAO. A good choice, however.

 

[chris719]

M1 ESP 0W-30 doesnt carry a LL01 or LL04 so it didnt make my list. Only the 5W-30 appears to carry LL04.

Went with the castrol 0w-40 this time around.

I am curious why BMW hasnt approved LL04 for the US. I poked around a bit and it looks like 10ppm is the target but there still exists a credit system in the US where fuel suppliers can go over by burning credits. I wonder if BMW isnt comfortable with this vs a hard limit. IE in 2023 ~56billion gallons on the market were above 10ppm and 70.2 billion were below. Perhaps you can have a issue with LLO4 oil if you are in a spot in the market where the higher sulfur fuel ends up.


https://www.epa.gov/renewable-fuel-standard/sulfur-averaging-banking-and-trading-abt-credit-data



also stumbled across a summary in this article that explains that low sulfur fuel is driving part of the cost spread increase we have been seeing between premium and regular.
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=64064

Interesting info but I don't think that drives BMW to not approve LL04 for NA simply because LL17FE+ LL22FE++ etc are all mid/low SAPS specs just like LL04 but are the default oils for new BMWs in NA.

 

[Marcozi]

Not LL01 and there's no oil that is all PAO. A good choice, however.

You are correct on both counts. It's an LL04 oil with a PAO base stock (Group 4).

 

[slo town]

The UOA that edy posted suggests it is very different now un?fortunately.

It's still 25% to 50% PAO based on the April 2025 MSDS.

Scott

 

[chris719]

It's still 25% to 50% PAO based on the April 2025 MSDS.

Scott

The additive package is completely different though. The SDS is just a rough guideline also. You can tell even the base oils changed because the pour point used to be -60 C and now it's -45 C.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

M1 ESP 0W-30 doesnt carry a LL01 or LL04 so it didnt make my list. Only the 5W-30 appears to carry LL04.

Went with the castrol 0w-40 this time around.

I am curious why BMW hasnt approved LL04 for the US. I poked around a bit and it looks like 10ppm is the target but there still exists a credit system in the US where fuel suppliers can go over by burning credits. I wonder if BMW isnt comfortable with this vs a hard limit. IE in 2023 ~56billion gallons on the market were above 10ppm and 70.2 billion were below. Perhaps you can have a issue with LLO4 oil if you are in a spot in the market where the higher sulfur fuel ends up.

CAFE. BMW dealerships.for years have been using a Low-SAPS 20 grade and more recently a 0w12. They cannot specify a viscosity which reduces fuel efficiency.

Around 2014 BMW transitioned away from LL01 to LL01fe.

 

[slo town]

The additive package is completely different though. The SDS is just a rough guideline also. You can tell even the base oils changed because the pour point used to be -60 C and now it's -45 C.

And you would be correct. Here are two VOAs I had done, one in 2014 (German made), the other in 2020 (Belgium made). As you can see there are differences. Time do a VOA from my newest batch (American made).

Over the last 10 to 15 years it's been my recollection that "German Castrol" regardless of where it's been made has consistently remained a >25% to <50% PAO base stock. This was my primary reason for choosing it originally, and the reason I still use it today. Latest MSDS April 2025 (presumably for the American made version) still shows same PAO percentages.

Also too, I use GC in our German fleet and our Honda Element - four cars - so I don't need to stock different engine oils.

BTW, and FWIW, the 0W-40 Euro Castrol has the same PAO percentage.

Scott

2014 German made
===============

Belgium made
===========

 

[chris719]

And you would be correct. Here are two VOAs I had done, one in 2014 (German made), the other in 2020 (Belgium made). As you can see there are differences. Time do a VOA from my newest batch (American made).

Over the last 10 to 15 years it's been my recollection that "German Castrol" regardless of where it's been made has consistently remained a >25% to <50% PAO base stock. This was my primary reason for choosing it originally, and the reason I still use it today. Latest MSDS April 2025 (presumably for the American made version) still shows same PAO percentages.

Also too, I use GC in our German fleet and our Honda Element - four cars - so I don't need to stock different engine oils.

BTW, and FWIW, the 0W-40 Euro Castrol has the same PAO percentage.

Scott

2014 German made
===============


Belgium made
===========

That’s all true, but the -45 pour point at least suggests it has nothing special in terms of PAO content now. I do not see what makes the new version any better than any of the other random A3/B4 oils with “SP” packages. Especially if you’re not looking for BMW approval, ESP 0W-30 and ESP X4 seem better on paper. Since you can’t buy it in 5 Qt or 5 L jugs, it’s really hard to recommend on a value basis. The only claim to fame it’s the only full LL01 oil in US retail that’s a 0W-30.