What happened to the low gas prices?
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Originally Posted By: grampi
Alternatives to fossil fuels need to be developed, and we shouldn't wait until fossil fuels become too expensive to buy before it's done...the more sources of energy we have available, the better...
I agree but there are no options except nuclear, wind, tidal, and solar. None of them are happening to any reasonable degree for a long time.
Alternatives to fossil fuels need to be developed, and we shouldn't wait until fossil fuels become too expensive to buy before it's done...the more sources of energy we have available, the better...
I agree but there are no options except nuclear, wind, tidal, and solar. None of them are happening to any reasonable degree for a long time.
Originally Posted By: GMFan
I live about 1 mile from SC so I get my gas there. At one point it was 1.39/gal. Now it is at 2.09 when I filled up yesterday morning at a Quik Trip. They even had NON-Ethanol gas for 2.49/gal!
Ours was down to $1.69, now it's $2.69...
I live about 1 mile from SC so I get my gas there. At one point it was 1.39/gal. Now it is at 2.09 when I filled up yesterday morning at a Quik Trip. They even had NON-Ethanol gas for 2.49/gal!
Ours was down to $1.69, now it's $2.69...
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: grampi
Alternatives to fossil fuels need to be developed, and we shouldn't wait until fossil fuels become too expensive to buy before it's done...the more sources of energy we have available, the better...
I agree but there are no options except nuclear, wind, tidal, and solar. None of them are happening to any reasonable degree for a long time.
In the meantime we could be using CNG as there seems to be an abundance of that, but making it available for use in motor vehicles seems to be about as slow of a process as is the development of the other alternatives...
Originally Posted By: grampi
Alternatives to fossil fuels need to be developed, and we shouldn't wait until fossil fuels become too expensive to buy before it's done...the more sources of energy we have available, the better...
I agree but there are no options except nuclear, wind, tidal, and solar. None of them are happening to any reasonable degree for a long time.
In the meantime we could be using CNG as there seems to be an abundance of that, but making it available for use in motor vehicles seems to be about as slow of a process as is the development of the other alternatives...
Originally Posted By: qwerty1234
Some of the folks who claim driving is a necessity probably never even looked into other options.
I guess, taking the bus/el train or commuter train isn't as cool as driving?
Ain't too practical for me to schlep workaday 4x8 plywood and whatnot about on the local bus lines.
Trains and buses in Europe, Asia and many U.S. cities are perfectly acceptable in many instances imho, though.
'Public transportation' these days in L.A. is often rife with degenerates, street urchins, ne'er-do-wells and the dregs of society.
Not like Chicago.
Some of the folks who claim driving is a necessity probably never even looked into other options.
I guess, taking the bus/el train or commuter train isn't as cool as driving?
Ain't too practical for me to schlep workaday 4x8 plywood and whatnot about on the local bus lines.
Trains and buses in Europe, Asia and many U.S. cities are perfectly acceptable in many instances imho, though.
'Public transportation' these days in L.A. is often rife with degenerates, street urchins, ne'er-do-wells and the dregs of society.
Not like Chicago.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Remember this: there were many investigates about oil companies from Federal and states and local governments, but they ever found any wrong doing from any oil company.
Originally Posted By: grampi
Who decides crude oil prices? Crude producers do by controlling supply, as well as speculators who create strife in the market.
Why would consumers complain when oil goes from $100 to $40? It's good the consumer catches a break once in a while. It doesn't happen very often.
Why do people continue to make irrelevant profit level comparisons with companies that make things that are not a necessity, like Apple. If Apple stops producing products, or charges so much for them that no one can afford them, consumers would buy similar products from some other company. That can't be done with gas/diesel, and if gas becomes priced so high that no one can afford it, our country's economy tanks. Big difference.
No one here is saying the industry shouldn't make profits. Of course everyone knows any business needs to make profits to succeed. What I am saying is there doesn't need to be the manipulation of the market so the industry can make record profits, and it should be illegal.
If oil producers can actually control the supply to keep the price high then why didn't they do that ? If you look at crude oil price of the last 20-25 years you will see that some years the crude oil price went down and stay low for several years. This tells me oil producers didn't have ability to control anything.
Yes, record profit in term of dollars but in term of revenue no oil company ever had a profit of more than 20% in any quarter of the last 50 years. Their profits were about 8-12% majority of the time and this is not "record profit" by any standard.
You are upsetting for paying $2.69/gal, how about Californian are paying $2.89-3.09/gal ? We didn't upset because we think this is the way it is and nothing we can do to change it.
About "manipulation market should be illegal", I don't know if it is legal or not, but oil companies were under investigated many times in the past and never found any illegal activity.
Remember this: there were many investigates about oil companies from Federal and states and local governments, but they ever found any wrong doing from any oil company.
Originally Posted By: grampi
Who decides crude oil prices? Crude producers do by controlling supply, as well as speculators who create strife in the market.
Why would consumers complain when oil goes from $100 to $40? It's good the consumer catches a break once in a while. It doesn't happen very often.
Why do people continue to make irrelevant profit level comparisons with companies that make things that are not a necessity, like Apple. If Apple stops producing products, or charges so much for them that no one can afford them, consumers would buy similar products from some other company. That can't be done with gas/diesel, and if gas becomes priced so high that no one can afford it, our country's economy tanks. Big difference.
No one here is saying the industry shouldn't make profits. Of course everyone knows any business needs to make profits to succeed. What I am saying is there doesn't need to be the manipulation of the market so the industry can make record profits, and it should be illegal.
If oil producers can actually control the supply to keep the price high then why didn't they do that ? If you look at crude oil price of the last 20-25 years you will see that some years the crude oil price went down and stay low for several years. This tells me oil producers didn't have ability to control anything.
Yes, record profit in term of dollars but in term of revenue no oil company ever had a profit of more than 20% in any quarter of the last 50 years. Their profits were about 8-12% majority of the time and this is not "record profit" by any standard.
You are upsetting for paying $2.69/gal, how about Californian are paying $2.89-3.09/gal ? We didn't upset because we think this is the way it is and nothing we can do to change it.
About "manipulation market should be illegal", I don't know if it is legal or not, but oil companies were under investigated many times in the past and never found any illegal activity.
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: grampi
Alternatives to fossil fuels need to be developed, and we shouldn't wait until fossil fuels become too expensive to buy before it's done...the more sources of energy we have available, the better...
I agree but there are no options except nuclear, wind, tidal, and solar. None of them are happening to any reasonable degree for a long time.
In the meantime we could be using CNG as there seems to be an abundance of that, but making it available for use in motor vehicles seems to be about as slow of a process as is the development of the other alternatives...
Al,
Palo Verde, in 2015 produced as much energy as all of California's solar, wind and hydro, on a tiny footprint compared to the others...the future requirement is quite clear, but certain group(s) won't have it.
As to running gas, Ca Retail price is $1.45/gal equivalent energy (see my comparison for Oz prices and heating my home with diesel would make more financial sense).
CNG at $1.45/gal...how much would you pay for the conversion and limited range ?
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: grampi
Alternatives to fossil fuels need to be developed, and we shouldn't wait until fossil fuels become too expensive to buy before it's done...the more sources of energy we have available, the better...
I agree but there are no options except nuclear, wind, tidal, and solar. None of them are happening to any reasonable degree for a long time.
In the meantime we could be using CNG as there seems to be an abundance of that, but making it available for use in motor vehicles seems to be about as slow of a process as is the development of the other alternatives...
Al,
Palo Verde, in 2015 produced as much energy as all of California's solar, wind and hydro, on a tiny footprint compared to the others...the future requirement is quite clear, but certain group(s) won't have it.
As to running gas, Ca Retail price is $1.45/gal equivalent energy (see my comparison for Oz prices and heating my home with diesel would make more financial sense).
CNG at $1.45/gal...how much would you pay for the conversion and limited range ?
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Al,
Palo Verde, in 2015 produced as much energy as all of California's solar, wind and hydro, on a tiny footprint compared to the others...the future requirement is quite clear, but certain group(s) won't have it.
Yea..I was a nuke for 32 years. Believe me, nukes are done in the U.S. First Energy is shutting down 2 in the next 2 years. TMI will likely shut down in 3 years. And that is just one company. There are 3 Nukes being built, but they likely will not see the light of day.
Al,
Palo Verde, in 2015 produced as much energy as all of California's solar, wind and hydro, on a tiny footprint compared to the others...the future requirement is quite clear, but certain group(s) won't have it.
Yea..I was a nuke for 32 years. Believe me, nukes are done in the U.S. First Energy is shutting down 2 in the next 2 years. TMI will likely shut down in 3 years. And that is just one company. There are 3 Nukes being built, but they likely will not see the light of day.
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Originally Posted By: grampi
Alternatives to fossil fuels need to be developed, and we shouldn't wait until fossil fuels become too expensive to buy before it's done...the more sources of energy we have available, the better...
We "shouldn't," but that's how people are, unfortunately. We get best motivated by a crisis, rather than worrying about something that might give us grief twenty years down the road. Beyond that, the market does decide the viability of alternatives, too. LPG used to be fairly viable at one time in Canada. That was in no small part due to its much lower price in relation to gasoline. When that reversed, that ended. No one is going to devote billions of dollars to develop "Mr. Fusion" power plants for every house and car on the road while fossil fuels are affordable. Also, no one is going to devote a whack of resources to upgrading the electrical infrastructure to handle widespread permeation of electric cars until it's necessary.
CNG is available, and you even brought it up. Why aren't you driving a CNG vehicle?
Al: We're getting a nice lesson in western Canada about the market of gasoline right now, despite those who say there is no supply and demand. Just about every major Petro-Canada in BC, Alberta, and Saskatchewan is out of fuel right now, and this started to happen a couple days ago. Of course, the price of gas went up, which is no surprise. The supply has fallen. The demand hasn't fallen accordingly, so the price rises. Petro-Canada is exceedingly picky about its gas supply and just won't buy gasoline from anyone else.
And we do have empty buses, though the school buses usually do fairly well. Yet, the city is talking about buying articulated buses, of all things, when a Ford E-350 could handle several of the routes.
I actually do a fair bit of grocery shopping at a small mom and pop store very close to my house. The proprietor asked why I don't do more at the big stores. I told him that his prices aren't as bad as he thinks they are, and for what little I buy, what's the point of firing up the car and driving to the grocery store, burning gas and fighting crowds?
Alternatives to fossil fuels need to be developed, and we shouldn't wait until fossil fuels become too expensive to buy before it's done...the more sources of energy we have available, the better...
We "shouldn't," but that's how people are, unfortunately. We get best motivated by a crisis, rather than worrying about something that might give us grief twenty years down the road. Beyond that, the market does decide the viability of alternatives, too. LPG used to be fairly viable at one time in Canada. That was in no small part due to its much lower price in relation to gasoline. When that reversed, that ended. No one is going to devote billions of dollars to develop "Mr. Fusion" power plants for every house and car on the road while fossil fuels are affordable. Also, no one is going to devote a whack of resources to upgrading the electrical infrastructure to handle widespread permeation of electric cars until it's necessary.
CNG is available, and you even brought it up. Why aren't you driving a CNG vehicle?
Al: We're getting a nice lesson in western Canada about the market of gasoline right now, despite those who say there is no supply and demand. Just about every major Petro-Canada in BC, Alberta, and Saskatchewan is out of fuel right now, and this started to happen a couple days ago. Of course, the price of gas went up, which is no surprise. The supply has fallen. The demand hasn't fallen accordingly, so the price rises. Petro-Canada is exceedingly picky about its gas supply and just won't buy gasoline from anyone else.
And we do have empty buses, though the school buses usually do fairly well. Yet, the city is talking about buying articulated buses, of all things, when a Ford E-350 could handle several of the routes.
I actually do a fair bit of grocery shopping at a small mom and pop store very close to my house. The proprietor asked why I don't do more at the big stores. I told him that his prices aren't as bad as he thinks they are, and for what little I buy, what's the point of firing up the car and driving to the grocery store, burning gas and fighting crowds?
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
About "manipulation market should be illegal", I don't know if it is legal or not, but oil companies were under investigated many times in the past and never found any illegal activity.
If they have been investigated by gov't officials in the US I would be SURPRISED if they found anything since the petrochemical companies have big money lobbyists that grease the palms of the oversight for the investigators (congress, SEC, ect)
About "manipulation market should be illegal", I don't know if it is legal or not, but oil companies were under investigated many times in the past and never found any illegal activity.
If they have been investigated by gov't officials in the US I would be SURPRISED if they found anything since the petrochemical companies have big money lobbyists that grease the palms of the oversight for the investigators (congress, SEC, ect)
Again, so you claim there's gouging, but one can never obtain evidence of gouging, and that's simply more evidence of the gouging. So, what do we do about it? You can't change the laws obviously, because the elected officials are bribed, right? And a revolution would see new officials bribed, right?
Originally Posted By: GiveMeAVowel
If they have been investigated by gov't officials in the US I would be SURPRISED if they found anything since the petrochemical companies have big money lobbyists that grease the palms of the oversight for the investigators (congress, SEC, ect)
Yep..every investigation in decades has revealed no collusion. Everyone in the world is dishonest (except you).
Makers of tinfoil hats must be making enormous profits right now.....They should be investigated.
I don't know if I feel sorry for folks that ascribe to conspiracy theories. I only feel grateful that I try to get real facts on areas that interest me.
If they have been investigated by gov't officials in the US I would be SURPRISED if they found anything since the petrochemical companies have big money lobbyists that grease the palms of the oversight for the investigators (congress, SEC, ect)
Yep..every investigation in decades has revealed no collusion. Everyone in the world is dishonest (except you).
Makers of tinfoil hats must be making enormous profits right now.....They should be investigated.
I don't know if I feel sorry for folks that ascribe to conspiracy theories. I only feel grateful that I try to get real facts on areas that interest me.
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Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Remember this: there were many investigates about oil companies from Federal and states and local governments, but they ever found any wrong doing from any oil company.
Originally Posted By: grampi
Who decides crude oil prices? Crude producers do by controlling supply, as well as speculators who create strife in the market.
Why would consumers complain when oil goes from $100 to $40? It's good the consumer catches a break once in a while. It doesn't happen very often.
Why do people continue to make irrelevant profit level comparisons with companies that make things that are not a necessity, like Apple. If Apple stops producing products, or charges so much for them that no one can afford them, consumers would buy similar products from some other company. That can't be done with gas/diesel, and if gas becomes priced so high that no one can afford it, our country's economy tanks. Big difference.
No one here is saying the industry shouldn't make profits. Of course everyone knows any business needs to make profits to succeed. What I am saying is there doesn't need to be the manipulation of the market so the industry can make record profits, and it should be illegal.
If oil producers can actually control the supply to keep the price high then why didn't they do that ? If you look at crude oil price of the last 20-25 years you will see that some years the crude oil price went down and stay low for several years. This tells me oil producers didn't have ability to control anything.
Yes, record profit in term of dollars but in term of revenue no oil company ever had a profit of more than 20% in any quarter of the last 50 years. Their profits were about 8-12% majority of the time and this is not "record profit" by any standard.
You are upsetting for paying $2.69/gal, how about Californian are paying $2.89-3.09/gal ? We didn't upset because we think this is the way it is and nothing we can do to change it.
About "manipulation market should be illegal", I don't know if it is legal or not, but oil companies were under investigated many times in the past and never found any illegal activity.
Why do you think prices have been so low up until recently? Do you think OPEC flooding the market had anything to do with that? And no wrong doing has been found in investigations because the ones doing the investigating collect billions in taxes every year from the industry...you think there might be a slight conflict of interest there?
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Remember this: there were many investigates about oil companies from Federal and states and local governments, but they ever found any wrong doing from any oil company.
Originally Posted By: grampi
Who decides crude oil prices? Crude producers do by controlling supply, as well as speculators who create strife in the market.
Why would consumers complain when oil goes from $100 to $40? It's good the consumer catches a break once in a while. It doesn't happen very often.
Why do people continue to make irrelevant profit level comparisons with companies that make things that are not a necessity, like Apple. If Apple stops producing products, or charges so much for them that no one can afford them, consumers would buy similar products from some other company. That can't be done with gas/diesel, and if gas becomes priced so high that no one can afford it, our country's economy tanks. Big difference.
No one here is saying the industry shouldn't make profits. Of course everyone knows any business needs to make profits to succeed. What I am saying is there doesn't need to be the manipulation of the market so the industry can make record profits, and it should be illegal.
If oil producers can actually control the supply to keep the price high then why didn't they do that ? If you look at crude oil price of the last 20-25 years you will see that some years the crude oil price went down and stay low for several years. This tells me oil producers didn't have ability to control anything.
Yes, record profit in term of dollars but in term of revenue no oil company ever had a profit of more than 20% in any quarter of the last 50 years. Their profits were about 8-12% majority of the time and this is not "record profit" by any standard.
You are upsetting for paying $2.69/gal, how about Californian are paying $2.89-3.09/gal ? We didn't upset because we think this is the way it is and nothing we can do to change it.
About "manipulation market should be illegal", I don't know if it is legal or not, but oil companies were under investigated many times in the past and never found any illegal activity.
Why do you think prices have been so low up until recently? Do you think OPEC flooding the market had anything to do with that? And no wrong doing has been found in investigations because the ones doing the investigating collect billions in taxes every year from the industry...you think there might be a slight conflict of interest there?
Originally Posted By: Garak
Again, so you claim there's gouging, but one can never obtain evidence of gouging, and that's simply more evidence of the gouging. So, what do we do about it? You can't change the laws obviously, because the elected officials are bribed, right? And a revolution would see new officials bribed, right?
I never said there was gouging...what the industry does isn't legally considered gouging, which is how they get away with what they do. They manipulate the market to maximize profits...the results are the same, but done the way they do it it's also legal...unethical, but legal...what I don't understand is why guys like you, AL, and HTSS_TR are always so quick to defend the industry. Are you guys paid for this?
Again, so you claim there's gouging, but one can never obtain evidence of gouging, and that's simply more evidence of the gouging. So, what do we do about it? You can't change the laws obviously, because the elected officials are bribed, right? And a revolution would see new officials bribed, right?
I never said there was gouging...what the industry does isn't legally considered gouging, which is how they get away with what they do. They manipulate the market to maximize profits...the results are the same, but done the way they do it it's also legal...unethical, but legal...what I don't understand is why guys like you, AL, and HTSS_TR are always so quick to defend the industry. Are you guys paid for this?
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I've seen a poster or three essentially post that the facts are that collusion and speculators are the cause of high oil prices.
If these are facts, it should not be too difficult for those to provide us with evidence of those facts.
If these are facts, it should not be too difficult for those to provide us with evidence of those facts.
Originally Posted By: SeaJay
I've seen a poster or three essentially post that the facts are that collusion and speculators are the cause of high oil prices.
If these are facts, it should not be too difficult for those to provide us with evidence of those facts.
[crickets]...[/crickets]
I've seen a poster or three essentially post that the facts are that collusion and speculators are the cause of high oil prices.
If these are facts, it should not be too difficult for those to provide us with evidence of those facts.
[crickets]...[/crickets]
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: GiveMeAVowel
If they have been investigated by gov't officials in the US I would be SURPRISED if they found anything since the petrochemical companies have big money lobbyists that grease the palms of the oversight for the investigators (congress, SEC, ect)
Yep..every investigation in decades has revealed no collusion.
well that was easy. Problem solved.
Originally Posted By: GiveMeAVowel
If they have been investigated by gov't officials in the US I would be SURPRISED if they found anything since the petrochemical companies have big money lobbyists that grease the palms of the oversight for the investigators (congress, SEC, ect)
Yep..every investigation in decades has revealed no collusion.
well that was easy. Problem solved.
If the oil companies controlled the price then I don't think they would have let it drop so precipitously lately such that the fracking towns have gone bust.
Why would they have put all that money into those wells just to let it languish now?
Why would they have put all that money into those wells just to let it languish now?
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