What Exactly Makes An Oil "European Formula"

[sohccammer427]

Castrol Edge extended Performance 0w-20

CASTROL EDGE EXTENDED PERFORMANCE 0W-20

MEETS OR EXCEEDS INDUSTRY STANDARDS:​

API SP/SN PLUS/SN
ILSAC GF-6
ACEA A1/B1, ACEA C5
Meets Ford WSS-M2C947-B1
Meets Ford WSS-M2C962-A1
Fiat 9.55535-CR1, Fiat 9.55535-GSX
MB 229.71
GM dexos1® Gen 2

Looks like at this point that the API and Euro (ACEA) have pretty much overlapped. Here is a C5 that is also a Dexos1.

 

[edyvw]

Castrol Edge extended Performance 0w-20

CASTROL EDGE EXTENDED PERFORMANCE 0W-20

MEETS OR EXCEEDS INDUSTRY STANDARDS:​

API SP/SN PLUS/SN
ILSAC GF-6
ACEA A1/B1, ACEA C5
Meets Ford WSS-M2C947-B1
Meets Ford WSS-M2C962-A1
Fiat 9.55535-CR1, Fiat 9.55535-GSX
MB 229.71
GM dexos1® Gen 2

Looks like at this point that the API and Euro (ACEA) have pretty much overlapped. Here is a C5 that is also a Dexos1.

ACEA is a start that other approvals are based on.
Dexos1 is manufacturer approval, C5 is not. European manufacturers build their approvals based on ACEA and are more stringent. Just because this oil is MB229.71 and Dexos1 does not mean those two approvals are equal. MB229.71 is more stringent and in this case bcs. MB demands this oil can be approved. However, there are no BMW LL17FE and VW508.00/509.00 approvals that have further specific demands that for Castrol probably does not make business sense to develop generic oil (yet) with those approvals in mind.
However, any oil being approved for any current MB approval means it is top of the line oil. Dexos1 here is not particularly important. All other oils have Dexos1, but not MB229.71.

 

[Hall]

We think we are the center of the world in the USA while Europe has a higher population than us.

That ties into what I ask when I see this sub-forum's name - "European and Import Motor Oils". What does "import" mean other than that everyone here is in the US and it's oil from other countries ?

 

[OVERKILL]

That ties into what I ask when I see this sub-forum's name - "European and Import Motor Oils". What does "import" mean other than that everyone here is in the US and it's oil from other countries ?

Maybe European and Asian Motor Oils might be more appropriate? LOL

 

[Hall]

Don't forget Canadian, Mexican, South American (??), and so on too, @OVERKILL. Then again, maybe it just be easier to call it "Non-US Motor Oils" !

 

[OVERKILL]

Don't forget Canadian, Mexican, South American (??), and so on too, @OVERKILL. Then again, maybe it just be easier to call it "Non-US Motor Oils" !

I think most of us tend to think of North American when we think of the PCMO and HDEO sections, as we often discuss Petro-Canada in there. But yes, we could do "Outside North America" or something.

 

[riggaz]

It's usually just the approvals on the oil are more Eurocentric. US oils tend to just have API and Ilsac approvals whereas euro oils tend to be OEM approval centric.

 

[Sveina]

Castrol Edge extended Performance 0w-20

CASTROL EDGE EXTENDED PERFORMANCE 0W-20

MEETS OR EXCEEDS INDUSTRY STANDARDS:​

MB 229.71

If that is a direct copy paste, then they aren't writing the MB approval correctly. But it is on the MB BeVo list. Seems sloppy from Castrol then.

 

[blufeb95]

If that is a direct copy paste, then they aren't writing the MB approval correctly. But it is on the MB BeVo list. Seems sloppy from Castrol then.

It does say it correctly on the jug.

 

[kschachn]

If that is a direct copy paste, then they aren't writing the MB approval correctly. But it is on the MB BeVo list. Seems sloppy from Castrol then.

Castrol (and Pennzoil) can definitely be sloppy with their approval designations. Unlike some that like to make it seem they have approvals they do not have, those two obfuscate ones they actually do have.

 

[rondhol]

Generally you can see in German https://oil-club.de/index.php?board/5-motoröl/

Most motor oil are either OEM specs like VW 504/507 5W-30 or 508/509 0W-20 or meet ACEA standard C5 , C3, etc. Those oil are often is called longlife LL Oil that can be used up to 20k miles /2 years under normal conditions. Most German people still do 10k miles/1 year unless they have diesel with 8 Quarts oil sump or Autobahn exclusive drive. Some of the certified/ approved VW Longlife IV are Mobil 1 SP X2, Castrol Edge, Ravenol VSE, TOTAL INEO, Mannol 7722, etc.

Very often the Japanese cars Toyota and Mazda have very low wear 5-8 ppm in engine wear after 15000 km with any 0W-20 meanwhile most European cars 2-6x more wear even with thicker oil 5w-30. It is not true thinner oil has higher wear because often it contains higher antiwear additive like Mo, W, or Ti. Very rarely 5w-30 or thivker oil contains those antiwear besides standard ZDDP.

Most Newer Toyota, Honda, Mazda, Ford use 0w-16 in Europe now but 0w-20 are still used in some models. VW, Stelantis, BMW, Benz start using 0w-20 in their small turbo engine but keep 5w-30 in most of the Diesels.

 

[OVERKILL]

Very often the Japanese cars Toyota and Mazda have very low wear 5-8 ppm in engine wear after 15000 km with any 0W-20 meanwhile most European cars 2-6x more wear even with thicker oil 5w-30. It is not true thinner oil has higher wear because often it contains higher antiwear additive like Mo, W, or Ti. Very rarely 5w-30 or thivker oil contains those antiwear besides standard ZDDP.

A UOA doesn't give you actual wear figures, it simply gives you trending information. There are myriad factors that determine what we observe as the "wear rate" and you can't compare across brands based on certain numbers just being higher. There's a whole article on the usefulness of UOA's on the main page of this site:

Used Oil Analysis - Bob is the Oil Guy

UOAs are a great tool in the Management of any machinery that uses liquid lubricants. Unfortunately, their real value is often misunderstood by those who contribute to BITOG. Firstly, it is important to realize that you get what you pay for. The most common forms of UOA are limited in their...

bobistheoilguy.com

Thinner oils do not have higher levels of AW additives. Moly concentration varies by brand, as does titanium and tungsten. It is not rare at all for ticker grades to contain those FM's. ZDDP levels are higher in non-ESP formulas, decreased, and replaced by organic replacements, in oils designed for engines with GPF's.

The Euro marque approvals are significantly more stringent than the API ones, which are all the Japanese vehicles typically call for.

Ultimately a lower viscosity oil means a lower MOFT. Engine design changes can be made to mitigate this (wider bearings, anti-wear coatings...etc). As long as the oil temperature, which ultimately dictates operational viscosity, is kept in check, thinner oils can be safely used without risk. Where heavier oils are needed are operating profiles where oil temperatures can get quite elevated and if MOFT in the rod bearing area becomes insufficient, you risk playing rod peekaboo, which is why the high performance cars typically spec a heavier lubricant like a 0w-40.

Most Newer Toyota, Honda, Mazda, Ford use 0w-16 in Europe now but 0w-20 are still used in some models. VW, Stelantis, BMW, Benz start using 0w-20 in their small turbo engine but keep 5w-30 in most of the Diesels.

Yes, and approvals for 0w-20 for those Euro marques have been developed. The fuel economy benefits of a 0w-20 and 0w-16 are well documented and help lower overall fleet emissions and meet environmental targets. As I mentioned above, as long as the oil temperature can be suitably controlled, there is no risk to reducing start-up and warm-up viscosity. Coolant/oil heat exchanges are also typically employed to heat the oil up quicker, while also keeping the upper limit in check.

 

[billt460]

Overkill,

I'm learning a lot from you on all of this oil stuff. But it would really help if you could type long hand some of your abbreviations once and a while. For example I have no idea about,

UOA, AW, FM's, ZDDP levels, (I'm guessing it's zinc something or other). MOFT, non ESP, etc. Thanks in advance.

 

[ZeeOSix]

UOA = Used Oil Analysis
AW = Anti Wear
FM = Friction Modifier
MOFT = Minimum Oil Film Thickness (between moving parts)

 

[OVERKILL]

Overkill,

I'm learning a lot from you on all of this oil stuff. But it would really help if you could type long hand some of your abbreviations once and a while. For example I have no idea about,

UOA, AW, FM's, ZDDP levels, (I'm guessing it's zinc something or other). MOFT, non ESP, etc. Thanks in advance.

Zee covered it

 

[Sveina]

It does say it correctly on the jug.

At least that is good. But hey, ACEA A1/B1? -That is removed 5 years ago? Not much to brag about. Suprised that this oil can't comply to a current ACEA sequence.

 

[rondhol]

Many european cars have problems with timing chain wear and oil consumption compared to any Japanese cars. You can see how complicated and 2 or 3 chains in older Golf compared to only 1 in Corolla. It is also wellknown that many Honda engines can take NOS boost without any modification. It shows how excellent, simple, and durable Honda and Toyota engines in the past 50 years. Benz, BMW, and VW used to make durable engines but they put too much stuff these days and make the wear in the engines higher. The engine oil with higher antiwear additives and detergent can only help at certain degrees. But bad design is still bad design.

 

[OVERKILL]

Many european cars have problems with timing chain wear and oil consumption compared to any Japanese cars. You can see how complicated and 2 or 3 chains in older Golf compared to only 1 in Corolla. It is also wellknown that many Honda engines can take NOS boost without any modification. It shows how excellent, simple, and durable Honda and Toyota engines in the past 50 years. Benz, BMW, and VW used to make durable engines but they put too much stuff these days and make the wear in the engines higher. The engine oil with higher antiwear additives and detergent can only help at certain degrees. But bad design is still bad design.

There are plenty of problematic Honda and Toyota engines too. You continue to make bizarre generalizations in this thread and outright false claims.

Toyota's 1MZ and 5SFE engines were prone to sludge and massive oil consumption
Toyota's 2AZ-FE was prone to oil consumption

Honda's current 1.5L has massive fuel dilution problems to the point where the Chinese government has stepped in.
Honda's J35 V6 is prone to varnish and sludge as well as massive oil consumption because of a very poor cylinder deactivation design

Honda J35 V6 (J35Z4) Sludge and Cam Scoring

Front Cylinder Head was removed due to a broken spark plug on #4. The owner tried to remove the broken plug, but broke the ez-out. Prior to this incident, the front bank had an audible knock/tick. After disassembly, two scored cam lobes were found on #5. All of the rollers on the rocker were in...

bobistheoilguy.com

Honda also had issues with porous blocks at one point.

Whether you can spray a mill without tossing a rod or not doesn't really seem relevant. There are plenty of Euro and American engines that will take significantly more power than they shipped with, this isn't the Honda-only trait you claim it is.

 

[rondhol]

Offcourse there is certain range of any cars that are bad. Corolla 1998-2002 all are oil burner. V6 Honda with cylinder deactivation, etc. I talked about statistics, not 1 or 2 unicorn cases. European oil grade usually has higher TBN and additives to compensate their majority crappy engines.
You can do simple data mining of used oil analysis for European cars, you will know in few glance how bad their statistics in Fe, Al, Cu wear. It also match with their life span and problems.
From the fact of used car value in USA, you know why no European cars at the top 5.
My point is, use European grade oil for European car to keep it alive long enough. Don't mess around with them. They are fun but need more maintenance and repair

 

[2EHA]

Offcourse there is certain range of any cars that are bad. Corolla 1998-2002 all are oil burner. V6 Honda with cylinder deactivation, etc. I talked about statistics, not 1 or 2 unicorn cases. European oil grade usually has higher TBN and additives to compensate their majority crappy engines.
You can do simple data mining of used oil analysis for European cars, you will know in few glance how bad their statistics in Fe, Al, Cu wear. It also match with their life span and problems.