WD-40 is mostly hydroprocessed naphta and mineral oil.
What are we using for chain lube?
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I actually saw some generic DF moly chain lube the other day at the farm and ranch store of all places...
A Scott oiler may be the berries for some folks, but if your chain rings (sprockets) wear at all, it is due to either the chain elongating from wear past specification, or a mis-alignment/bad adjustment.
Chains do not outlast sprockets, if adjusted properly.
andrew,
what was the name of that farm and ranch store?
hopefully Tractor Supply as we have those here.
the only dry film spray i have is ptfe that i got from miller and it was very spendy.
what was the name of that farm and ranch store?
hopefully Tractor Supply as we have those here.
the only dry film spray i have is ptfe that i got from miller and it was very spendy.
Like the industrial sector, agriculture is big business. And there isn't lots of room for substandard products and/or methods, when there is money to be made. Just take a good look at a hay bailer or a combine one time...the need for specialized lubrication abounds.quote:
Originally posted by Andrew Hufford:
I actually saw some generic DF moly chain lube the other day at the farm and ranch store of all places...It's sad to know that the farmers have better available resources than the average rider interested in "only the best" for his/her pride and joy.
Motorsports is nothing but a hobby, save for a very small percentage involved in the pro racing sector. If there were more money to be made by riding motorcycles, you can bet that more crap products would fall to the wayside much faster.
The only money to be made is coming from the consumer/riders pocket. And the really sad part is that, marketing rules the motorsports market.
Technology is but details.
As far as using farm supply store type moly fluids...
be aware that they will most often times be carried by a very harsh solvent. Which can be disaterous to a ring chain seal.
There may not be anything actually in the package that addresses keeping rubber pliable either.
Althought they tend to be chock full of MoS2, they are usually not the best choice for a ring chain.
[ October 07, 2005, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: sbc350gearhead ]
Are you aware of any issue with the Schaeffer's 227 on an o-ring chain?
It sounds like you are saying sprockets don't wear at all if you adjust the chain correctly?
I'm pretty anal about adjusting the chain. I've got a couple of lazers I put on the rear wheel I use align it with the frame and front wheel, I've made a gauge to measure slack so I get that right. To say I don't take a little care to get it right would be an injustice.
Chains and sprockets both wear out. If you know what you are doing and are lucky, they all wear together and you replace all three when one has reached it's service life.
satterfi,
I am saying just that. Sprockets will not wear a great deal at all if things are proper.
Dirt bike sprockets can see some addtional wear due to trail hazzards, sand, and grit...but what makes a sprocket tooth deform is the chain pitch, and/or the tensioning adjustment.
I'm not questioning your apptitude.
This is just a subject I can offer you some facts on.
If a motorcycle chain has deformed sprocket teeth, I can assure you that the chain will measure out longer than spec. OR there is an adjustment problem.
It is so very easy for a rider to misunderstand the manual's instructions... and they often end up with damaged equipment simply because they missed a point or two.
Funny...I lazer align my sprockets too...but never had a need for two lazers. You must be on to a new concept. (shrug)
Also...could you explain your guage to me? How did you arrive at it's setting?
(I think I went back far enough for everyone to continue on in violent agreement here
Gary)
[ October 19, 2005, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
I am saying just that. Sprockets will not wear a great deal at all if things are proper.
Dirt bike sprockets can see some addtional wear due to trail hazzards, sand, and grit...but what makes a sprocket tooth deform is the chain pitch, and/or the tensioning adjustment.
I'm not questioning your apptitude.
This is just a subject I can offer you some facts on.
If a motorcycle chain has deformed sprocket teeth, I can assure you that the chain will measure out longer than spec. OR there is an adjustment problem.
It is so very easy for a rider to misunderstand the manual's instructions... and they often end up with damaged equipment simply because they missed a point or two.
Funny...I lazer align my sprockets too...but never had a need for two lazers. You must be on to a new concept. (shrug)
Also...could you explain your guage to me? How did you arrive at it's setting?
(I think I went back far enough for everyone to continue on in violent agreement here
[ October 19, 2005, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
I align the rear wheel by putting a lazer level on each side of the rear wheel. The levels have a splitter lens that projects the beam forward toward the front of the bike in form that's easy to see. I'd have to show you picture to make it more clear.
The method works pretty well. The rear sprocket (teeth) runs right down the middle of the chain. There is no wear on either side of the sprocket. I borrowed the technique from mechanics that track conveyour belts.
Perhaps we have a problem of definition. In any case it makes little difference to me. When I replace the chain, the front and rear sprockets get replaced too. Comparing the new sprockets with old ones, it's easy to see that they aren't like they use to be.
[ October 07, 2005, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
The method works pretty well. The rear sprocket (teeth) runs right down the middle of the chain. There is no wear on either side of the sprocket. I borrowed the technique from mechanics that track conveyour belts.
Perhaps we have a problem of definition. In any case it makes little difference to me. When I replace the chain, the front and rear sprockets get replaced too. Comparing the new sprockets with old ones, it's easy to see that they aren't like they use to be.
[ October 07, 2005, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
Those mechanics that track conveyor belts, huh?
Those would be called "Millwrights".
I happen to be one of those mechanics. Card carrying union millwright. I have been working with conveyors and power transmissions for most ALL of my adult life.
Since 1992, I have owned my own business that provides conveyor components, system designs, and installtion of such equipment.
I have installed conveyor equipment all over the United States, with most of my emphisis being on overhead power and free type chain coveyance systems.
I have installed many conveyors within airports around the country as well. You can see my handiwork at JFK, Houston, Ft. Lauderdale, St. Paul, Philly, Boston, etc...airports.
I also have installed or worked on conveyor systems for many major mfg's., including General Electric, Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota, Brown& Williamson, Phillip Morris, and the list goes on.
I curtrently have been working with Ford maintenance individuals in providing them with technical service and information on the care and lubrication of overhead and floor conveyance equipment.
Often times I am hired by these mfg's to provide training to their maintenance personal on the proper installation, adjustment, and maintenance of chains. All types of chains. Chains you have never even seen before. I know chains, sprockets, and power transmission issues.
OK...I' done qualifying myself for you.
You can take or leave what I'm offering you. But unless you have some technical information that dispells what I'm telling you, you would be well advised to realize that just maybe you don't have it all figured out yet. (shrug)
What I see most often are bike riders that have their chains too tight. It happens ALL THE TIME, and to folks who think they have things spot-on.
That is why I was so interested in how you zeroed your tension guage in.
I even see guys who own bike shops with the showroom floor full of bikes with chains too tight. It's a common occurance.
Did you ever consider measuring the chain when you took the drive off? You will find that it has elongated past >2% of original length, if the teeth are deformed. And if the teeth are deformed, and the chain meausres out to within spec., then the tension was most definately too tight.
Those would be called "Millwrights".
I happen to be one of those mechanics. Card carrying union millwright. I have been working with conveyors and power transmissions for most ALL of my adult life.
Since 1992, I have owned my own business that provides conveyor components, system designs, and installtion of such equipment.
I have installed conveyor equipment all over the United States, with most of my emphisis being on overhead power and free type chain coveyance systems.
I have installed many conveyors within airports around the country as well. You can see my handiwork at JFK, Houston, Ft. Lauderdale, St. Paul, Philly, Boston, etc...airports.
I also have installed or worked on conveyor systems for many major mfg's., including General Electric, Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota, Brown& Williamson, Phillip Morris, and the list goes on.
I curtrently have been working with Ford maintenance individuals in providing them with technical service and information on the care and lubrication of overhead and floor conveyance equipment.
Often times I am hired by these mfg's to provide training to their maintenance personal on the proper installation, adjustment, and maintenance of chains. All types of chains. Chains you have never even seen before. I know chains, sprockets, and power transmission issues.
OK...I' done qualifying myself for you.
You can take or leave what I'm offering you. But unless you have some technical information that dispells what I'm telling you, you would be well advised to realize that just maybe you don't have it all figured out yet. (shrug)
What I see most often are bike riders that have their chains too tight. It happens ALL THE TIME, and to folks who think they have things spot-on.
That is why I was so interested in how you zeroed your tension guage in.
I even see guys who own bike shops with the showroom floor full of bikes with chains too tight. It's a common occurance.
Did you ever consider measuring the chain when you took the drive off? You will find that it has elongated past >2% of original length, if the teeth are deformed. And if the teeth are deformed, and the chain meausres out to within spec., then the tension was most definately too tight.
Thanks gary. there is actually some good information being passed around in between all the other junk mixed in.
I have noticed alot of guys are afraid of having too much slack in their chains. a little bit too much slack is alot better than a tiny bit too tight.
I have noticed alot of guys are afraid of having too much slack in their chains. a little bit too much slack is alot better than a tiny bit too tight.
My hat's off to Gary. I was a bit over the top there. Thanks for not closing the thread.
I'm no expert millwright, so I get my information from expert millwrights, mechanics and manufacturers on the OEM stuff that goes into manufacturing plants.
I have no expertise in motorcycle drives other than what I've seen on the bikes I've owned.
I'll pharaphrase what I've been told by an engineer who works for a chain/drive/sprocket manufacturer.
"Sprockets are designed to work with a chain of an exact pitch. That pitch is when the chain is new. After the chain has been used, it will elongate. The used chain no longer has the same dimensions as a new chain. The used chain will not fit the sprockets as they were originally designed. Under these conditions, the sprocket will experience wear. Never replace a chain without replacing the sprockets."
Don't believe me. Take it up with the people who make the things.
Any millwright who has access to catalogs from Rexnord, Linkbelt or the other major manufactures can look it up. It's there.
As a side note:
If your motorcycle sprockets aren't wearing, get something with more than 20 ft-lbs torque and 30 horsepower. And go to the track. Your bike needs to be flogged every now and then. Next time someone tells me sprockets don't wear I'm going to puke on a Buell.
I'm no expert millwright, so I get my information from expert millwrights, mechanics and manufacturers on the OEM stuff that goes into manufacturing plants.
I have no expertise in motorcycle drives other than what I've seen on the bikes I've owned.
I'll pharaphrase what I've been told by an engineer who works for a chain/drive/sprocket manufacturer.
"Sprockets are designed to work with a chain of an exact pitch. That pitch is when the chain is new. After the chain has been used, it will elongate. The used chain no longer has the same dimensions as a new chain. The used chain will not fit the sprockets as they were originally designed. Under these conditions, the sprocket will experience wear. Never replace a chain without replacing the sprockets."
Don't believe me. Take it up with the people who make the things.
Any millwright who has access to catalogs from Rexnord, Linkbelt or the other major manufactures can look it up. It's there.
As a side note:
If your motorcycle sprockets aren't wearing, get something with more than 20 ft-lbs torque and 30 horsepower. And go to the track. Your bike needs to be flogged every now and then. Next time someone tells me sprockets don't wear I'm going to puke on a Buell.
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Okay ..I've attempted to delete all the off topic ejecta here. Can we please stay on track and avoid any further "stuff". Live and let live.
I'd surely appreciate it ...and thank you, kindly
Gary
I'd surely appreciate it ...and thank you, kindly
Gary
One of the diffugalties were have here is the attempt to compare lowly stressed industrial chain applications intended to run thousands of hour with motorcycle chain that is run at much higher stress levels with an acceptable life of 200 hours.
By industrial design standards, 5/8 inch motorcycle chain is good for about 5 hp under clean, continuosly lubed conditions and should never be run as fast as it is run on a motorcycle. If you try to use industrial chain design criteria on a motorcycle, it says Don't do that!
Industrial rollor chain applications also avoid using 15 and 16 tooth or smaller sprockets as are commonly found on the front of motorcycle chains. The chordal action is hard on the chain. Even in low speed industrial applications, the chain is derated when such small sprockets are used.
OTOH, Jaybird is spot on when he say that most motorcycle's chains are mal-adjusted.
By industrial design standards, 5/8 inch motorcycle chain is good for about 5 hp under clean, continuosly lubed conditions and should never be run as fast as it is run on a motorcycle. If you try to use industrial chain design criteria on a motorcycle, it says Don't do that!
Industrial rollor chain applications also avoid using 15 and 16 tooth or smaller sprockets as are commonly found on the front of motorcycle chains. The chordal action is hard on the chain. Even in low speed industrial applications, the chain is derated when such small sprockets are used.
OTOH, Jaybird is spot on when he say that most motorcycle's chains are mal-adjusted.
You need to first understand what the rep was telling you.
He said exactly what I've been telling you.
The chain will wear the sprocket once it elongates.
And I notice he ended it with the advice to ALWAYS change the chain and sprocket out as a set. But, that is a basic answer given to the majority of riders. Due to the fact that the majority of riders do not understand the whole of chain maintenance.
Most often times folks will indeed leave a chain drive in service longer than it should have been. This results in not only an elongated drive chain, but the sprocket teeth also being deformed as a result of that chain elongation.
So, yes..MOST times it is best to recommend the consumer to change things out as a set.
However, if you understand how a sprocket wears, you will understand that if you keep an eye on your chain, and change IT out before it reaches a point of ~2.5% of it's original length, then there will be no good reason to have to change the sprockets out. Unless they have experienced wear due to other factors such as trail hazzards, the pitch of the sprockets will still match that of a new chain.
Also, flog your bike all you want. If the alignement and tension are correct, and the chain is within usable specifications, then the sprocekt will not wear as a result of the beast power of your bike. I know that this goes against conventional wisdom, but all I can give you are facts on this, not specualtion.
SX650,
We aren't talking design criteria here. Yes, the information concerning the design criteria is correct. Motorcycle chain drives do ideed violate normal design practice, including the violation of the 17 tooth rule.
(one reason you should always use the largest driver sprocket you can to obtain any given ratio)
The motorcycle has been desinged with chain guides to overcome some of the design violations.
As far as the HP rating of a #50 series chain, I'm not sure where you got that information, but it is incorrect....or maybe a bettter term would be "incomplete". There may well be situations that more than 5hp would be used in conjunction with a #50 series chain.
Yes, certain criteria are spelled out as guides to follow when designing a chain drive.
BUT, the alignment and tensioning criteria are NO different for any chain drive. That is standard engineering data that is not questionable.
That standard tensioning criteria is what most motorcycle riders miss. It is a fact that the chain should have from 1-3% of the total shaft distances, in full up-and-down travel (or "play") of the chain when it is in it's tightest position.
On a 2ft. motorcycle set-up, this would mean the chain having a total up and down movement of .48"
This is very little free play of the chain when it is in it's tightest position (shock compressed and swingarm in a striaght line with countershaft sprocket-swingarm-rear sprocket).
When the chain is in this position, it only takes a very small turn of the adjusters to have the chain too tight. Whne the bike is reutrned to normal riding poistion, the desing of the bike itself allows the chain to appear slacked. UNTILL the rider experiences a jump or something that will compress the shock. If the chain is the slightest bit too tight in this condition, the chain will bind hard on the sprocket and repeating this only damages the sprocket teeth in time. Not only the sprocket and chain sees undue stress form this, but also the wheel/shaft bearings and seals see damage from this.
Bottom line, motorcycles must go against standard engineering practices in their design.
And as a result tend to require more maintenance attention, than does the properly desinged industrial application.
This condition also dictates that more attention be paid to lubrication than does the normal application.
I'm not a big fan of commercial spray lubes as they are all but impossible to remove, instead I mix up a gallon concoction of 1/3 chain saw blade oil (tacky), what ever Mobil or AMS oil I have laying around and bottle of Valvoline Syn Power oil additive. This is applied with a old gear oil bottle with the cone cap, works great and you can actually remove it with simple green and a brush. Now this is on my CRF450X off road bike, my street bike uses a belt so I can't say.
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