What are we using for chain lube?
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What determines the chain tension is the distances between the driver and driven shafts.
The window is usually given as 1-3% of that distance for proper free play.
I may have caused a bit of confusion with my discription.
The .48" I reffered to for a 24" long set-up would be 2% of the suggested setting. The middle of the window.
I tend to not want to adjust my motocross bikes to the short side of the window. The potential for heavy shock load from acceleration at the moment of full shock compression is very great.
So, I like to allow a bit of slack. I will adjust to the 2-3% range.
On a street bike, it is far less likely to incounter the conditions a racing dirt bike would. So, it is fine to adjust to the tighter adjustment, jsut so long as you don't violate it.
Take a measurement of your shaft distances and see if the mfg recommendation doesn't fit the 1-3% of that measurement.
Also, take good note of the manual and see if there is maybe an illistration. Sometimes, a mfg will talk free play of a chain, and will be refering to the trqavel it can take going in one direction only.
In other words...if they say .24" of free play, they may mean only if you push down on it or pull up on it. Another manual would suggest .48" yet they would be refering to total up-and-down movement. BOth manuals are telling you the same thing, but in differnt ways.
Just a heads up...manuals are not all infalable. They do provide eroneous information from time to time. Not often, but it happens.
Many times there is a loss of translation from Japanese to English...lots more often than folks would think.
The window is usually given as 1-3% of that distance for proper free play.
I may have caused a bit of confusion with my discription.
The .48" I reffered to for a 24" long set-up would be 2% of the suggested setting. The middle of the window.
I tend to not want to adjust my motocross bikes to the short side of the window. The potential for heavy shock load from acceleration at the moment of full shock compression is very great.
So, I like to allow a bit of slack. I will adjust to the 2-3% range.
On a street bike, it is far less likely to incounter the conditions a racing dirt bike would. So, it is fine to adjust to the tighter adjustment, jsut so long as you don't violate it.
Take a measurement of your shaft distances and see if the mfg recommendation doesn't fit the 1-3% of that measurement.
Also, take good note of the manual and see if there is maybe an illistration. Sometimes, a mfg will talk free play of a chain, and will be refering to the trqavel it can take going in one direction only.
In other words...if they say .24" of free play, they may mean only if you push down on it or pull up on it. Another manual would suggest .48" yet they would be refering to total up-and-down movement. BOth manuals are telling you the same thing, but in differnt ways.
Just a heads up...manuals are not all infalable. They do provide eroneous information from time to time. Not often, but it happens.
Many times there is a loss of translation from Japanese to English...lots more often than folks would think.
Jaybird wrote:
"If the alignment and tension are correct, and the chain is within usable specifications, then the sprockets will not wear as a result of the beast power of your bike. I know that this goes against conventional wisdom, but all I can give you are facts on this, not speculation."
I took the chain and sprockets off my bike today for replacement. The old chain appears to have the same dimensions as the new one. I don’t know how you measure chain elongation but it’s not easily observable in my case.
The 2.5% elongation you spoke of means the 102 links was 63.75 inches new and is out of spec when at 65.3 inches. That seems like way too much to me.
The sprockets on the other hand, look worn.
I’m trying to be open minded but so far the evidence in my garage does not confirm your "facts".
"If the alignment and tension are correct, and the chain is within usable specifications, then the sprockets will not wear as a result of the beast power of your bike. I know that this goes against conventional wisdom, but all I can give you are facts on this, not speculation."
I took the chain and sprockets off my bike today for replacement. The old chain appears to have the same dimensions as the new one. I don’t know how you measure chain elongation but it’s not easily observable in my case.
The 2.5% elongation you spoke of means the 102 links was 63.75 inches new and is out of spec when at 65.3 inches. That seems like way too much to me.
The sprockets on the other hand, look worn.
I’m trying to be open minded but so far the evidence in my garage does not confirm your "facts".
satterfli,
Measure a chain that has been on worn sprockets and then get back to me.
(you may want to research on the proper way to do this first)
You need to have at least a small grasp of what's going on here before you give out information.
We know about as much as you do about the chains and sprockets in your garage.
Which is very little.
One thing I do know, is what makes chains and sprockets wear. And I'll be glad to help you when you decide to learn.
Measure a chain that has been on worn sprockets and then get back to me.
(you may want to research on the proper way to do this first)
You need to have at least a small grasp of what's going on here before you give out information.
We know about as much as you do about the chains and sprockets in your garage.
Which is very little.
One thing I do know, is what makes chains and sprockets wear. And I'll be glad to help you when you decide to learn.
Jaybirds’ contemptuous attitude inspired me to re-measure the chain, as the first time I got a pitch of .626 inches. With 20 lbs of weight hanging on the chain I get a pitch of .628 inches. So the chain has elongated about 0.5 %.
I’m satisfied with this amount of elongation to be the reason for the sprocket wear. After all, I’ve got 36k miles, 12 rear tires and a hand full of track days on it. The Scottoiler has a lot to do with it. It can easily double the chain life and reduce the time you spend adjusting the chain.
It’s a fact that I only need to adjust the chain when I put a new rear tire on (about every 3k miles).
FYI, I'm not flying blind. I've had someone who's seen hundreds of M/C chains and sprockets look at my drive components. I pretty sure I know what I'm doing.
I’m satisfied with this amount of elongation to be the reason for the sprocket wear. After all, I’ve got 36k miles, 12 rear tires and a hand full of track days on it. The Scottoiler has a lot to do with it. It can easily double the chain life and reduce the time you spend adjusting the chain.
It’s a fact that I only need to adjust the chain when I put a new rear tire on (about every 3k miles).
FYI, I'm not flying blind. I've had someone who's seen hundreds of M/C chains and sprockets look at my drive components. I pretty sure I know what I'm doing.
1sttruck;
I’ve seen some brutal applications for conveyor chain, in particular, plastic table top chain. Starting and stopping with heavy loads on it, dumb a$$ mechanics and millwrights who replace sections when it breaks instead of replacing the whole thing and with new sprockets, management who thinks conveyors are a one time cost and 250 million dollars worth of conveyor don’t need regular maintenance, electricians who can’t program a VFD to do a soft start, PLC programmers who have no idea on how things need to work on the plant floor. It would make you cry.
Industrial drives take a beating. For the most part it's because people are lazy, igorant or stupid. It pis$es me off to see properly designed equipment get trashed.
I suppose the same can be said for M/C drives that see a short service life, lazy, igorant, stupid, etc.
I do have LOTS of experience with high revving, high torque, motorcycle drives.
My attitude may seem contemptuous to you, satterfli, but only because I have challanged you on the information you have provided.
I mean look...you said you had someone who has seen hundreds of mc chains and sprockets look at your drive. Well, did his looking at your drive give you some sort of magical powers that allow you to understand power transmission now? Please...give me a break. I've sold hundreds of chains and sprockets for motorcycles...does that give me ANY credibility whatsoever on the subject? Absolutely not.
I am a power transmission proffesional...does that give me any credibility? Apparenltly not because y'all have figured out that a motorcycle is different than a tabletop conveyor.
I'm sorry you all can't accept what I'm telling you...but try to bring something more than simple logic to the table. Try some engineering facts and you will start to see what I'm saying is true.
1sttruck...perhaps you could explain to us in detail on how those chains wear differently?
[ October 19, 2005, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
My attitude may seem contemptuous to you, satterfli, but only because I have challanged you on the information you have provided.
I mean look...you said you had someone who has seen hundreds of mc chains and sprockets look at your drive. Well, did his looking at your drive give you some sort of magical powers that allow you to understand power transmission now? Please...give me a break. I've sold hundreds of chains and sprockets for motorcycles...does that give me ANY credibility whatsoever on the subject? Absolutely not.
I am a power transmission proffesional...does that give me any credibility? Apparenltly not because y'all have figured out that a motorcycle is different than a tabletop conveyor.
I'm sorry you all can't accept what I'm telling you...but try to bring something more than simple logic to the table. Try some engineering facts and you will start to see what I'm saying is true.
1sttruck...perhaps you could explain to us in detail on how those chains wear differently?
[ October 19, 2005, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
"I took the chain and sprockets off my bike today for replacement. The old chain appears to have the same dimensions as the new one. I don’t know how you measure chain elongation but it’s not easily observable in my case.
The 2.5% elongation you spoke of means the 102 links was 63.75 inches new and is out of spec when at 65.3 inches. That seems like way too much to me.
The sprockets on the other hand, look worn."
Part of 'chain stretch' for many is actually sprocket wear. I replaced front sprockets with each chain as they tended to start undercutting, but I could often get a rear sprocket to last two chains. I'd see how far a link on the rear sprocket could be pulled off of the sprocket, and if it was more than very little I'd replace the sprocket.
If Jaybird doesn't have a lot of experience with large, fast bikes or applications with high rpm chains that aren't in an oil bath, such as in an engine or transfer case, then I'd apply recommendations with caution. Chains on bikes that can do well over 130 mph in the 1/4 mile and that top out well above 150 mph will tend to wear differently than chains on a parts conveyer in an assembly line.
The 2.5% elongation you spoke of means the 102 links was 63.75 inches new and is out of spec when at 65.3 inches. That seems like way too much to me.
The sprockets on the other hand, look worn."
Part of 'chain stretch' for many is actually sprocket wear. I replaced front sprockets with each chain as they tended to start undercutting, but I could often get a rear sprocket to last two chains. I'd see how far a link on the rear sprocket could be pulled off of the sprocket, and if it was more than very little I'd replace the sprocket.
If Jaybird doesn't have a lot of experience with large, fast bikes or applications with high rpm chains that aren't in an oil bath, such as in an engine or transfer case, then I'd apply recommendations with caution. Chains on bikes that can do well over 130 mph in the 1/4 mile and that top out well above 150 mph will tend to wear differently than chains on a parts conveyer in an assembly line.
Yup.
Jay, you are obviously are highly qualified when it comes to chains. I do wish that you would lay off your background a bit and just talk about the best chain lube for our bikes. On every forum you visit on the Internet you will find people that disagree with you. You can either debate with them forever or move on to something else. This thread doesn't even seem to be about chain lube any more. My $.02
Point taken, rat.
I only tout my qualificatins due to the fact that some have stated they are using the info they provide from others that are supposedly proffesionals in the field.
I too am one of those proffesionals, and I disagree with the anecdotal evidence they have presented.
Yes, I did come on too strong...but you have to realize I have this discussion often. You would be amazed at how many motorcycle riders, both leisure time trail riders and pro racers/tuners spend thousands of hours worrying about having the proper jetting of the carbs, high-tech suspensions, port jobs for optimum turbulance flow, high-tech valve springs and mechanisms, high octane oxygenated race fuel, and even the rubber compound used on the tires...yet they completely ignore the chain drive. Or, give it very minimal thought at best.
The wearing of chains and sprockets are directly related to the lubrication schedule the drive sees.
Sprockets wear due to the chain elongating from wear. OR...they have been mal-adjusted. It's that simple.
Full fluid film lubrication is a less than desirable way to lubricate a motorcycle chain. It just isn't feasable to keep a fluid film alive and protecting properly for very long. There simply isn't an acceptable vehicle to maintaint the film thickness. Many have tried using tackifiers in an attempt to keep the fluid film in place, but that poses many other problems, including cleanup and the added chance of wear due to the chain picking up contaminants and creating a grinding paste.
The answer is to utilize boundery lubrication for a motorcycle roller chain.
Dry films provide boundery lubrication, and not only perform better than conventional fluid films, but far outlasts them.
Some have formed ideas of what happens to their chain drives, and how.
I am simply trying to provide real world information, which often differs from these folks preconcieved notions.
I only tout my qualificatins due to the fact that some have stated they are using the info they provide from others that are supposedly proffesionals in the field.
I too am one of those proffesionals, and I disagree with the anecdotal evidence they have presented.
Yes, I did come on too strong...but you have to realize I have this discussion often. You would be amazed at how many motorcycle riders, both leisure time trail riders and pro racers/tuners spend thousands of hours worrying about having the proper jetting of the carbs, high-tech suspensions, port jobs for optimum turbulance flow, high-tech valve springs and mechanisms, high octane oxygenated race fuel, and even the rubber compound used on the tires...yet they completely ignore the chain drive. Or, give it very minimal thought at best.
The wearing of chains and sprockets are directly related to the lubrication schedule the drive sees.
Sprockets wear due to the chain elongating from wear. OR...they have been mal-adjusted. It's that simple.
Full fluid film lubrication is a less than desirable way to lubricate a motorcycle chain. It just isn't feasable to keep a fluid film alive and protecting properly for very long. There simply isn't an acceptable vehicle to maintaint the film thickness. Many have tried using tackifiers in an attempt to keep the fluid film in place, but that poses many other problems, including cleanup and the added chance of wear due to the chain picking up contaminants and creating a grinding paste.
The answer is to utilize boundery lubrication for a motorcycle roller chain.
Dry films provide boundery lubrication, and not only perform better than conventional fluid films, but far outlasts them.
Some have formed ideas of what happens to their chain drives, and how.
I am simply trying to provide real world information, which often differs from these folks preconcieved notions.
The manual on the 2006 Honda TRX 90 that I bought for my son says to use 80/90 weight gear oil.
It's an o-ring chain also.
It's an o-ring chain also.
"1sttruck...perhaps you could explain to us in detail on how those chains wear differently?
And I'm sure XS650 will be there to add his "yup". "
At 150 mph chain speed is running around 4k feet per minute, which is pretty high for roller chain. During extended +100 mph cruises the chain on my bikes would usually get pretty warm. Industrial chain is usually recommended to be in a circulating oil bath for speeds like that, but bikes usually get a shot of chain lube every tank of gas at best. Loads on the big bikes are high enough to sometimes slightly bend chain pins.
Symptoms of poor lube on a bike are kinked chain (I'd loosen the tension and exercise each link on mine in order to redistribute lube inside the O rings after each lube, if I had the time), fretting from low lube resulting in a rusty powder at the links, and rollers that don't roll very well (I'd exercise each roller after lubing if I had the time), hooked teeth on the front sprocket, loose chain on the rear sprocket, rough running, reduced speed, more noise, and in extreme cases the chain jumping a sprocket, usually the front.
For any given condition the higher speed will result in higher operating temperatures and poorer lubrication, as the lube will thin and will be slung off in larger quantities. The speeds will tend to change wear at the sprockets somewhat due to how the chain tracks. With big, fast bikes one also has big, grabby brakes (I would routinely shut down hard from 120 mph when exiting the freeway to see how the bike was running), which puts additional loads on the bike.
And I'm sure XS650 will be there to add his "yup". "
At 150 mph chain speed is running around 4k feet per minute, which is pretty high for roller chain. During extended +100 mph cruises the chain on my bikes would usually get pretty warm. Industrial chain is usually recommended to be in a circulating oil bath for speeds like that, but bikes usually get a shot of chain lube every tank of gas at best. Loads on the big bikes are high enough to sometimes slightly bend chain pins.
Symptoms of poor lube on a bike are kinked chain (I'd loosen the tension and exercise each link on mine in order to redistribute lube inside the O rings after each lube, if I had the time), fretting from low lube resulting in a rusty powder at the links, and rollers that don't roll very well (I'd exercise each roller after lubing if I had the time), hooked teeth on the front sprocket, loose chain on the rear sprocket, rough running, reduced speed, more noise, and in extreme cases the chain jumping a sprocket, usually the front.
For any given condition the higher speed will result in higher operating temperatures and poorer lubrication, as the lube will thin and will be slung off in larger quantities. The speeds will tend to change wear at the sprockets somewhat due to how the chain tracks. With big, fast bikes one also has big, grabby brakes (I would routinely shut down hard from 120 mph when exiting the freeway to see how the bike was running), which puts additional loads on the bike.
Hertzian contact stresses on the small sprocket are pretty entertaining too. Combine that with a bit of grit and the story about spockets not wearing out loses credibility
[ October 19, 2005, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
1sttruck,
I am curious where you get your information. Especially ther part about some big bikes bending the pins slightly. You have set off the bee ess meter for sure on that one.
And you will find that a kinkied ring chain is indicative of contaminants that have gotten past the sealing rings and oxidation occured internally at the pin/bushing area. This could be partly due to poor lubrication, but only of the sealing rings.
If there is no violation of the rings, there will be no kinking until the internal lube is completely consumed. The chain will have went WAY past recommended safe running specs by that time.
XS650,
Yes, there is a violation of standard engineering practice when we use a motorcycle sprocket with less than 17 teeth. Even more reason to be concerned about providing a motorcycle chain drive extra attention in the lubrication area.
BUT...until the time that the chain elongates from wear, the pitches will stil match and the sprocket will not lose it's integrity. It is the CHAIN that sees the excess energy that is created by going outside of the engineering criteria, NOT the sprocket.
(suggested alternative) I understand that this is counter to what you've accepted for years as fact ..but I really think that you should consider that what I'm asserting here is not opinion. ..yadayadaya.
[ October 19, 2005, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
I am curious where you get your information. Especially ther part about some big bikes bending the pins slightly. You have set off the bee ess meter for sure on that one.
And you will find that a kinkied ring chain is indicative of contaminants that have gotten past the sealing rings and oxidation occured internally at the pin/bushing area. This could be partly due to poor lubrication, but only of the sealing rings.
If there is no violation of the rings, there will be no kinking until the internal lube is completely consumed. The chain will have went WAY past recommended safe running specs by that time.
XS650,
Yes, there is a violation of standard engineering practice when we use a motorcycle sprocket with less than 17 teeth. Even more reason to be concerned about providing a motorcycle chain drive extra attention in the lubrication area.
BUT...until the time that the chain elongates from wear, the pitches will stil match and the sprocket will not lose it's integrity. It is the CHAIN that sees the excess energy that is created by going outside of the engineering criteria, NOT the sprocket.
(suggested alternative) I understand that this is counter to what you've accepted for years as fact ..but I really think that you should consider that what I'm asserting here is not opinion. ..yadayadaya.
[ October 19, 2005, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
Motorcycle mfg's will often give this recommendation. It is basically a catch-all recommendation, as they know that 90wt gear oil will indeed provide a chain good lubrication.
The problem is that the lube doesn't last very long. But, that isn't the problem of the motorcycle mfg.
On a ring chain, the critical friction areas are protected from wear by internally sealed in lube.
The only thin you are lubricating on a ring chain are the rings (to keep them supple and hopefully they won't tear or dry crack as easy) and the roller/ bushing area. (and the roller/sprocket tooth to some degree)
You will also see mfg's give very generic recommendations in preparation of an OEM deal with a chain lube Co.
On a side note...mfg's have motives for recommending the products they do, and often times the recommendation has nothing to do with what product is best for the machine. It's more to do with money.
I'll consider a more detailed response when you offer a rational technical explanation from a reliable source or one developed from first principles that explains why drive sprockets don't wear if the chain isn't worn. Until then, the meter remains pegged.
So far, there is nothing to challange.
"I am curious where you get your information. Especially ther part about some big bikes bending the pins slightly. You have set off the bee ess meter for sure on that one."
"http://www.pashnit.com/hayabusa-mods.htm
If there's one thing you can't skimp on with high-horsepower bikes- it's the chain. And for the Hayabusa- it isn't cheap. I typically find myself replacing the chain and sprockets once a year- or about every 10,000 miles. On high horsepower bikes, the teeth of the chain get literally bent- not in dramatic way- but when you set the old against new, you can clearly see it."
Maybe he's talking about the sprocket, but he did say chain.
"http://www.pashnit.com/hayabusa-mods.htm
If there's one thing you can't skimp on with high-horsepower bikes- it's the chain. And for the Hayabusa- it isn't cheap. I typically find myself replacing the chain and sprockets once a year- or about every 10,000 miles. On high horsepower bikes, the teeth of the chain get literally bent- not in dramatic way- but when you set the old against new, you can clearly see it."
Maybe he's talking about the sprocket, but he did say chain.
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