Warranties voided for E15 users

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Originally Posted By: turtlevette
"It wasn't designed to do that" is not technical. Thats a line of horse that you give to some stupid business major who thinks its a technical reason. Capiche?


You mean like the ones that think that EtOH in gasoline is a good idea in the first place?
 
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Thast's a sleezebag move for the manufacturers to void warranties without providing a technical reason. If they can't build every car to handle up to e85 they have no business selling in the USA. Go sell your junk in china.



The technical reason is that they didn't design the cars for E15, only for E10. It costs more money to build a car that can handle E85. There's hardly any E85 pumps in MA so why should the automakers build cars to handle a fuel that isn't readily available? They do everything they can to shave a nickle or a dollar off every system as it is, they're not going to waste money on something that's not even required.

Voiding a warranty because a person used something that it wasn't designed to use is a perfectly legitimate reason.


You design a vehicle for conditions that coukd be expected over a period of years, say 10. Not for the conditions that exist this year. Thaat's the other problem with business majors. Absolutely no vision. Everthing is based upon saving the next nickle.

If manufacturers get their way they'll seal the hood and make you come begging to them for everything. We had to pass a right to repair law here in mass.
 
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Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Thast's a sleezebag move for the manufacturers to void warranties without providing a technical reason. If they can't build every car to handle up to e85 they have no business selling in the USA. Go sell your junk in china.



The technical reason is that they didn't design the cars for E15, only for E10. It costs more money to build a car that can handle E85. There's hardly any E85 pumps in MA so why should the automakers build cars to handle a fuel that isn't readily available? They do everything they can to shave a nickle or a dollar off every system as it is, they're not going to waste money on something that's not even required.

Voiding a warranty because a person used something that it wasn't designed to use is a perfectly legitimate reason.


You design a vehicle for conditions that coukd be expected over a period of years, say 10. Not for the conditions that exist this year. Thaat's the other problem with business majors. Absolutely no vision. Everthing is based upon saving the next nickle.

If manufacturers get their way they'll seal the hood and make you come begging to them for everything. We had to pass a right to repair law here in mass.


Yeah, this is a pointless thread and you've made the exact opposite point. E15 never got approved, no need for it. Manufacturers only build what fits the current condition. They don't have some magic crystal ball and can predict that in 5 years some new legislation that may or may not pass so that they will build to that spec. Expecting anything like that is... well I don't know what to say. SMH.

So do you understand the point you're making? You think manufacturers should have built cars to handle E15 even though that never happened. The proposals for it happened long after the cars were built. It basically makes no sense.

Business majors and manufacturers just have a totally different philosophy than you do. Building cars is all about compromise. Sure they could have built it in along with a bunch of other stuff, but then the costs would be so high that no one could afford them. That's what you don't get.
 
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Thast's a sleezebag move for the manufacturers to void warranties without providing a technical reason. If they can't build every car to handle up to e85 they have no business selling in the USA. Go sell your junk in china.



The technical reason is that they didn't design the cars for E15, only for E10. It costs more money to build a car that can handle E85. There's hardly any E85 pumps in MA so why should the automakers build cars to handle a fuel that isn't readily available? They do everything they can to shave a nickle or a dollar off every system as it is, they're not going to waste money on something that's not even required.

Voiding a warranty because a person used something that it wasn't designed to use is a perfectly legitimate reason.


You design a vehicle for conditions that coukd be expected over a period of years, say 10. Not for the conditions that exist this year. Thaat's the other problem with business majors. Absolutely no vision. Everthing is based upon saving the next nickle.

If manufacturers get their way they'll seal the hood and make you come begging to them for everything. We had to pass a right to repair law here in mass.




Business majors and manufacturers just have a totally different philosophy than you do. Building cars is all about compromise.


Yep, that's why they're no fun to drive anymore. Most of them.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Yep, that's why they're no fun to drive anymore. Most of them.


Well you just need to get the right car. I love driving my Mercedes. Life's too short to drive a car you hate.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
We had to pass a right to repair law here in mass.


Leaving Elon Musk seething in anger. I'm pretty sure he cried when that happened.
 
From what I have been reading on the GM-Trucks forum and the Camaro C5 Forum. Most are getting their vehicles converted and tuned for FF. DI engines with high compression ratios (11.5:1 for the 6.2 and 11.0 for the 5.3) love the extra octane tolerance in the Pickups and SUV's They are also getting 50hp and 70lbft more after the tune on the dyno.

Most of the GM trucks are FF. The ones that are not are just missing the sensor. Everything else is the same. Not sure why they just don't put one on them all. They all go down the same assembly line. From the tuners note, the FF table is already in the ECM. It just needs the sensor and then turn the table on.

FF is inexpensive racing fuel basically. Plus the added benefit of burning cleaner, less carbon on the piston tops.

I can see not using it in anything older than 2011, but from that point on I feel the manufactures already had it planned into the vehicles since they new E15 was coming on board at the pumps.

Using these numbers and assuming you drive 15k miles a year getting 17mpg average on gasoline and 11.9 on E85 (30% loss) I come up with the following.

15k miles / 17 mpg = 882.35 gallons X 2.25 = $1985.3

15k miles / 11.9 mpg = 1260.5 gallons X 1.44 = $1815.1 (Savings of $170)
 
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The only problem is that ethanol costs more to transport the further you are from the corn belt. I looked into it once when I had an E85 rental in the northeast. The only advantage to using it was that it was cheaper per gallon and all you had to was fill up the tank when you returned the car, it wasn't cheaper once you factored in the lower gas mileage.
 
The argument was made that fuel lines between E10 rated and flex fuel vehicles are different. I contend they are not. Simplicity in the logistics and supply channels is paramount in auto production to reduce overall costs and parts mix ups. I have hauled hundreds of loads of production parts to assembly plants. The same lines and such are going into flex fuel vehicles and E10 vehicles. Complications are avoided, like having E85 rated components in a E10 rated vehicle, or E10 rated components in a flex fuel rated vehicle. If a auto maker is producing both E10 and flex fuel vehicles, they use the same flex fuel capable components. The only real difference is an ethanol level sensor and ECM programming.

But more likely, even E15 would not be actually E15. The regulations say a maximum of E15. It can contain any level up to that. E10, the same way. Even E85 has a level between E70 and E85. Again, a maximum of 85% but can have less. There are many instances where E10 doesn't have even 8% ethanol. It is not inconceivable that much of what is sold as E15 will have lower than 15% levels, probably 11-12%. And it is quite a stretch to think that 1-2% higher ethanol in fuel is going to grenade a fuel system that have already been approved and using E10.

Seems this whole argument over E15 is a wasted effort and supported by irrational paranoia. No one is forced to use E15. Even any mandate by EPA for it to be available, E10 will still be at the same retail outlet. E10 is not going to be eliminated. This is more retailer focused to get higher blends at the pumps. That is why there has been a push for some time get retailers to offer blender pumps that will allow E10, E15, E20, E30, E50, and E85 all at the same pump.

Frankly, I haven't seen such a level of paranoia over something since the old Cold War days when we might be obliterated in a massive nuclear exchange. Some folks need to take a chill pill.
 
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
You design a vehicle for conditions that coukd be expected over a period of years, say 10. Not for the conditions that exist this year.


So do you understand the point you're making? You think manufacturers should have built cars to handle E15 even though that never happened. The proposals for it happened long after the cars were built. It basically makes no sense.


Maybe the auto makers should design cars to still run while withstanding a nuclear blast magnetic pulse, or electromagnetic energy emitted from a UFO when overhead.
50.gif
grin.gif
 
Hahaha, this thread is getting better by the minute! Cars should be able to magically think ahead!

All of our trucks are flex fuel GM platforms except my Wife's RAM. The 3500 vans respond very well to E85, changes their power dramatically and they really seem to like it.

But the fuel usage goes up way out of proportion to the price. Costs more money to complete a days work. But it is fun.
 
Originally Posted By: oldhp
You would not believe the difference using 91 octane E-ZERO fuel in either vehicle. Some will say its the higher octane, but they run no different on 89/93 octane E-10 fuel.


Yes, I would think it would be the octane, and not the lack of ethanol, responsible for the performance difference.

We have a few E0 stations around here, but they sell only 87 octane E0. I tried three tankfuls in a row in my Ridgeline. Disappointingly, it ran like 87 octane E10. Which is to say, it runs "fine", but the engine has a real edge to it when you use 93 octane, and that's what we use all the time in both of our vehicles.

Unfortunately, 87 octane E0 was giving me the performance of regular at the price of mid grade. So I went back to using 93 octane E10.
 
Originally Posted By: veryHeavy
"The only cars that would be warranted for use of the new E15 are flex-fuel vehicles, which are designed to use concentrations of ethanol up to 85 percent (E85)." - http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/...akers/index.htm

"Automakers including Chrysler Group LLC, General Motors Co. and Toyota Motor Corp. criticized an EPA plan to allow gasoline containing up to 15 percent ethanol to be used in cars and trucks in the U.S., saying it may void warranties..... 'We have concerns about the potential harmful effects of E15 in engines and fuel systems that were not designed for use of that fuel,' Jody Trapasso, Chrysler's senior vice president of external affairs, wrote." - http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110705/OEM05/307059860/1186#ixzz1RKdnBwWs




What do those articles from 2011 have to do with new vehicles today under warranty? Are vehicles that state in their owners manual they can run on that fuel having warranty issues?
 
Originally Posted By: Rat407
From what I have been reading on the GM-Trucks forum and the Camaro C5 Forum. Most are getting their vehicles converted and tuned for FF. DI engines with high compression ratios (11.5:1 for the 6.2 and 11.0 for the 5.3) love the extra octane tolerance in the Pickups and SUV's They are also getting 50hp and 70lbft more after the tune on the dyno.

Most of the GM trucks are FF. The ones that are not are just missing the sensor. Everything else is the same. Not sure why they just don't put one on them all. They all go down the same assembly line. From the tuners note, the FF table is already in the ECM. It just needs the sensor and then turn the table on.

FF is inexpensive racing fuel basically. Plus the added benefit of burning cleaner, less carbon on the piston tops.

I can see not using it in anything older than 2011, but from that point on I feel the manufactures already had it planned into the vehicles since they new E15 was coming on board at the pumps.

Using these numbers and assuming you drive 15k miles a year getting 17mpg average on gasoline and 11.9 on E85 (30% loss) I come up with the following.

15k miles / 17 mpg = 882.35 gallons X 2.25 = $1985.3

15k miles / 11.9 mpg = 1260.5 gallons X 1.44 = $1815.1 (Savings of $170)


That's really good information. Notice how all the Professional government haters ignored you.

That's awesome that they're getting 50 more hp out of e85. It's like getting a supercharger for free. Most of these haters are appliance drivers so they don't relate to the same things real car guys do.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Hahaha, this thread is getting better by the minute! Cars should be able to magically think ahead!

While I'm not some giant fan of ethanol, nor a big hater of the product, I do have a general comment on it. Power sports and OPE equipment manufacturers, and to a lesser extent, vehicle OEMs, have been pointing the finger for a very long time at ethanol. Ethanol is here. It's been here for a long time. It's not disappearing in the foreseeable future. Pointing fingers doesn't address fuel system problems.
 
Originally Posted By: djb
Originally Posted By: Ohle_Manezzini
And why? Are they still in the 70's? The main hardware difference between a FFV and a gas nowadays, appart fromfuel managment, is the fuel pump that has carbon inductor, instead of copper.


There are major problems with changing to E15. Every bump in alcohol percentage comes with a major increase in corrosion activity and material incompatibility. E85 vehicles typically use stainless steel fuel lines, which are far more expensive and finicky than traditional steel lines.

And ... do you mean that the fuel pump needs a carbon-carbon *commutator*?


Yep, stainless steel lines and injectors in most 90's ... cars. Yes, carbon commutator at flex fuel pumps, to avoid the normal pump copper corrosion that arrest non ffv cars, as I said before, look below.

http://www.totankako.com/product_10_en.html
 
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Incoming EPA chief Scott Pruitt, AG from Oklahoma, is no fan of ethanol mandates.

Our FF GMC loves the E85 for its improved response and reduced KR, but it doesn't quite pencil out with the accounting department.
Making E85 hardware and software compatibility a 'mandatory option' for all gasoline highway vehicles would be easy and inexpensive for all manufacturers,
as it already is.
smile.gif
 
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