VVT and thicker oil

[hemioiler]

If this were actually a thing modern engines during in the frigid winters up north would be toast. The first 20 mins of cold driving at or below 0F will see variations much greater than the difference between any neighboring grades at operating temperature.

To illustrate, here is a graph of some HPL oils showing viscosity vs temp. There is no way they can design a VVT system that works at freezing temps with the recommended viscosity but starts being problematic at operating temps by moving up a single grade:

 

[hemioiler]

Also as a further thought, some engines use various sensors (temp + oil pressure etc) to calculate the viscosity of your oil, and then throw codes when then calculated viscosity is outside a programmed range.

All that means is that somebody sat down and programmed some numbers and the oil is outside of them. That doesn't mean the engine itself can't work with the viscosity it's using.

Great example is the early 2009+ 5.7 hemis which did throw codes but apparently they tuned the ECU in later years as that doesn't happen on later engines using the same oil which throws codes on a 2009.

 

[ATex7239]

Also as a further thought, some engines use various sensors (temp + oil pressure etc) to calculate the viscosity of your oil, and then throw codes when then calculated viscosity is outside a programmed range.

All that means is that somebody sat down and programmed some numbers and the oil is outside of them. That doesn't mean the engine itself can't work with the viscosity it's using.

Great example is the early 2009+ 5.7 hemis which did throw codes but apparently they tuned the ECU in later years as that doesn't happen on later engines using the same oil which throws codes on a 2009.

Yeah. The idea that is would damage the engine doesn’t hold up to even minor scrutiny.

An engine can withstand the fluctuations between 43.5 and 8.2 within approximately 100F of one particular oil. But if you move up one grade the same engine will be damaged. Just doesn’t make sense.

Mobil 1 AFE 0W20

Kinematic Viscosity @ 40 C, mm2/s, ASTM D445	43.5
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100 C, mm2/s, ASTM D445	8.2

 

[cptbarkey]

I was talking to a guy last night that has a repair shop, he has a GMC Denali and his customer was running the wrong grade of all, the customer tried putting the right grade in still did not take care of it..

Oil wont fix a mechanical issue.

 

[Scott S]

Oil wont fix a mechanical issue.

What I understand, it was from, using a thicker oil.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

I never said I had proof I asked a question that is it..

Yeah, the answer is you’re fine with any normal viscosity, as long as it’s clean. VVT valves that have accumulated particulates and varnish from oil used past its service life do much more harm than any change in viscosity.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

To illustrate, here is a graph of some HPL oils showing viscosity vs temp. There is no way they can design a VVT system that works at freezing temps with the recommended viscosity but starts being problematic at operating temps by moving up a single grade:

View attachment 229832

Awesome chart! Did you chart that out or.. what was the source?

 

[OVERKILL]

When we have smaller spaces, we need thinner oil to fit through those smaller spaces. Suppose you put a thicker oil in a modern engine. One of the things that’s going to do is increase oil pressure. Variable valve timing works off oil pressure so you might wind up with a check engine light and a code for the variable valve timing, which could lead to some expensive repairs. (Motor week )


Repair Care of Maryland.
Variable Valve Timing Codes? It Could Be the Oil!
If all other components of a variable valve timing (V V T) system seem to be functioning
properly and the OBD codes will not go away, check to see if the oil has been changed
recently and if the proper grade of oil was used. Different grades of oil might look the
same, in the bottle, but do not act the same in the engine.
Vehicle oil must meet two criteria: It should be the proper Society of Automotive
Engineers (SAE) grade and viscosity and it should meet the American Petroleum
Institute (API) service classification for the vehicle. Both the SAE and API designations
can be found on the vehicle's oil fill cap or in the owner's manual.
The viscosity and grade of motor oil is what interests us here. Viscosity refers to how
easily oil flows. Two primary factors affect oil's viscosity: temperature and age. When
oil is hot, it flows quickly. Oil flows slower as it cools. As oil ages, the polymer additives
break down and the oil loses viscosity. The ability to flow smoothly in an engine is
important because most of the passages are tiny.
Most vehicles require multi-grade motor oil. This means the oil has characteristics of
both cold weather oil and warm weather oil. As an example, consider a vehicle that
requires a 5W30 grade of motor oil. This means that the oil has the flow properties of
a 5-weight oil when cold and a flow property of a 30-weight oil when warm. The "W"
means that the oil has been tested for cold weather use.
With more vehicle manufacturers employing variable valve timing systems on vehicles
to meet emissions and horsepower needs, how well oil flows through an engine
becomes very important. Many manufacturers use oil pressure or flow as the power
source to adjust the timing. If the wrong grade of oil is used or if the oil is old, the
flow properties could be insufficient. If this happens, the timing system will not work properly and the OBD system may set codes.

Wait until they discover winter!

 

[kschachn]

What I understand, it was from, using a thicker oil.

Again, an engine is not damaged nor harmed by a thicker oil unless the car is being started at a temperature that is inappropriate for the winter rating. Engines can be harmed by an oil that is too thin however.

Film thickness and the MOFT protect, not the other way around.

 

[Scott S]

Yeah, the answer is you’re fine with any normal viscosity, as long as it’s clean. VVT valves that have accumulated particulates and varnish from oil used past its service life do much more harm than any change in viscosity.

Oh yeah I plan on it.. As soon as my body cooperates. Trying to heal from back surgery.. I'm probably going to use a Fumoto drain valve to make it easier on myself in the future.

 

[Scott S]

Again, an engine is not damaged nor harmed by a thicker oil unless the car is being started at a temperature that is inappropriate for the winter rating. Engines can be harmed by an oil that is too thin however.

Film thickness and the MOFT protect, not the other way around.

If you have a vehicle that requires 0w16 and you run 20w50 you're not going to have a problem, with the VVT obviously it's going to be too thick at startup?

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Oh yeah I plan on it.. As soon as my body cooperates. Trying to heal from back surgery.. I'm probably going to use a Fumoto drain valve to make it easier on myself in the future.

Fumotos are OK if your valve is protected; some drain plug locations leave the valve and handle exposed which is risky. I’ve got several Stahlbus valves which are convenient for me and have worked well; @Trav the master mechanic prefers Valvomax which is extremely similar in design and cost.

Best of luck on your back; I’ve got my own issues and know how difficult it can be since literally every movement requires it to “play along”.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

If you have a vehicle that requires 0w16 and you run 20w50 you're not going to have a problem, with the VVT obviously it's going to be too thick at startup?

Most engine controls (AFAIK) disable active VVT adjustments until a minimum engine or oil temperature has been achieved (depending on manufacturer) to prevent any issues. As stated earlier, even a cold 0w16 will be thicker than a 20w50 at operating temperature.

 

[kschachn]

If you have a vehicle that requires 0w16 and you run 20w50 you're not going to have a problem, with the VVT obviously it's going to be too thick at startup?

It depends on the starting temperature. If an oil with a 20W winter rating is appropriate then this oil isn’t going to cause damage.

Also, no engine “requires” 0W-16 oil.

 

[Scott S]

Fumotos are OK if your valve is protected; some drain plug locations leave the valve and handle exposed which is risky. I’ve got several Stahlbus valves which are convenient for me and have worked well; @Trav the master mechanic prefers Valvomax which is extremely similar in design and cost.

Best of luck on your back; I’ve got my own issues and know how difficult it can be since literally every movement requires it to “play along”.

Best of luck to you as well.. I will look into the Valvomax, I do not have anything covering, my pan, it's a Ford Edge, I looked up Stahlbus valves and could not find one for my vehicle, couple weeks ago, I liked the idea they were German made..
Thank you for your input..

 

[PontiacHO]

Currently have M1 0W-40 in my Silverado with VVT and no issues. /shrug

6.0 doesn’t have that feature. Consider yourself lucky.

 

[Scott S]

It depends on the starting temperature. If an oil with a 20W winter rating is appropriate then this oil isn’t going to cause damage.

Also, no engine “requires” 0W-16 oil.

I thought the Toyota's did?

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Best of luck to you as well.. I will look into the Valvomax, I do not have anything covering, my pan, it's a Ford Edge, I looked up Stahlbus valves and could not find one for my vehicle, couple weeks ago, I liked the idea they were German made..
Thank you for your input..

Yes the Stahlbus website is obscure and not friendly in some cases. I’ve had to simply find the thread size of my drain plug and order it that way… what year and engine are your Edge?

 

[hemioiler]

Awesome chart! Did you chart that out or.. what was the source?

You can build your own if you know the specs of the oil you're interested in, I have the HPL PDS's downloaded so its easy to do, just plug in the values on this page and it will generate the graph for you:

https://interlub.com/en/lubrication-tools/oil-viscosity-graph/

 

[Scott S]

13 Edge 3.5