Volvo 2.4L, short trips, advice sought

[Sam_Julier]

I currently maintain my parent's cars, a 2000 V70 and a 2007 V70, both 2.4L non-turbo, they average 1,500 miles per year, average trip is 5-10 minutes, 1 to 2x/day. Cars are in Concord MA, detached, un-heated garage. Oil is 0W-30 M1 AFE or RL 0W-30, Mahle OEM filter, 1 year OCI. I'm concerned about fuel dilution and the oil never reaching temperature. I am considering the following:

1) Have each car run on the highway 30 minutes each week.
2) Run UOA's.
3) If fuel is present in UOA switch to 6 month OCI.



Advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[SteveSRT8]

This is some of the most brutal driving there is.

You have to run UOA's or you will be forever second guessing this duty cycle.

 

[Indydriver]

This is my driving cycle except for 6,000 miles per year with a DI Turbo Mazda. I've done the UoAs and there is routinely 2.8% fuel dilution after 3,000 miles. I doubt yours will test any worse. The only solution is to change the oil.

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: Sam_Julier
I currently maintain my parent's cars, a 2000 V70 and a 2007 V70, both 2.4L non-turbo, they average 1,500 miles per year, average trip is 5-10 minutes, 1 to 2x/day. Cars are in Concord MA, detached, un-heated garage. Oil is 0W-30 M1 AFE or RL 0W-30, Mahle OEM filter, 1 year OCI. I'm concerned about fuel dilution and the oil never reaching temperature. I am considering the following:

1) Have each car run on the highway 30 minutes each week.
2) Run UOA's.
3) If fuel is present in UOA switch to 6 month OCI.



Advice would be greatly appreciated.


OCI frequency is more important than oil quality in this instance. The NA engines are easy runners and will not stress the oil like the turbos can, so a full synthetic is not as necessary.

I run T6 in our much harder-working NA 2.4, and I think it more oil than necessary. What you're presently using is way overkill for both under those circumstances. In fact, RL is the last oil you want in a short-tripper.

OCI mileage is obviously inconsequential here. I'd shoot for a 6 mo OCI with a budget-grade syn or a very good conventional. Running a UOA is not a bad idea to confirm first.

Your filter choice is spot on.

One good run a month is usually enough for these cars otherwise.

I'd also consider a CTEK so you don't run the batts too low in the winter months.

 

[Sam_Julier]

Why is RL the last oil for a short tripper?
Originally Posted By: Volvohead
Originally Posted By: Sam_Julier
I currently maintain my parent's cars, a 2000 V70 and a 2007 V70, both 2.4L non-turbo, they average 1,500 miles per year, average trip is 5-10 minutes, 1 to 2x/day. Cars are in Concord MA, detached, un-heated garage. Oil is 0W-30 M1 AFE or RL 0W-30, Mahle OEM filter, 1 year OCI. I'm concerned about fuel dilution and the oil never reaching temperature. I am considering the following:

1) Have each car run on the highway 30 minutes each week.
2) Run UOA's.
3) If fuel is present in UOA switch to 6 month OCI.



Advice would be greatly appreciated.


OCI frequency is more important than oil quality in this instance. The NA engines are easy runners and will not stress the oil like the turbos can, so a full synthetic is not as necessary.

I run T6 in our much harder-working NA 2.4, and I think it more oil than necessary. What you're presently using is way overkill for both under those circumstances. In fact, RL is the last oil you want in a short-tripper.

OCI mileage is obviously inconsequential here. I'd shoot for a 6 mo OCI with a budget-grade syn or a very good conventional. Running a UOA is not a bad idea to confirm first.

Your filter choice is spot on.

One good run a month is usually enough for these cars otherwise.

I'd also consider a CTEK so you don't run the batts too low in the winter months.

 

[CATERHAM]

RL is just expensive.
Since the oil is not getting up to temperature I'd run any cheap on sale 5W-20 dino. I'd change the oil twice per year in January and April or May. The reason is short trips are not as much of a problem in the warmer months when the engine isn't started at below freezing temp's.

 

[Sam_Julier]

Do you feel a weekly 30 minute highway run will eliminate the fuel dilution or not?
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
RL is just expensive.
Since the oil is not getting up to temperature I'd run any cheap on sale 5W-20 dino. I'd change the oil twice per year in January and April or May. The reason is short trips are not as much of a problem in the warmer months when the engine isn't started at below freezing temp's.

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: Sam_Julier
Why is RL the last oil for a short tripper?


RL is a Group V polyolester (POE) base oil. Polyolesters are more susceptible to degradation and eventual breakdown when exposed to moisture and acids than other base stocks. This is precisely the environment created by short trip driving, before the oil can be brought to full sustained temperature.

RL and other POEs are unmatched for extreme thermal performance. They are outstanding in a turbo application. But you are not running a turbo, so don't need -- or benefit from -- its principal strength.

A NA white block just doesn't utilize the performance that RL provides. And your driving habits play right into its principal weakness. That is why it's my last choice for a NA short-tripper.

And I would NOT put a 5w-20 into a Volvo white block. Too thin. A 5w-30 is the absolute thinnest to use in my opinion. VCNA only recommends it in N. America for fuel economy. A heavier oil than that is overall better in these, IMO.

Stick with a heavier 30w at a minimum. A 5w-40 runs absolutely beautifully in it, and you don't have the turbo spool up compromise that sometimes comes with using it.

If you want to run a 'fancy' oil in a NA white block, T6 is all you need, and it's the best value out there right now among G-III syns.

Otherwise, a strong quality conventional 10w-30 is OK in them, and will get the moisture and acids out more regularly with more frequent changes.

 

[Sam_Julier]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply Volvohead. I spoke to Dave at Redline who does not agree with this opinion. He feels RL can handle short trips and a 1 year OCI. Also, l just changed out RL 5W-40 for 0W-30 in my V70 with a noticeable change in acceleration and mileage. I'm not convinced this car needs more than a mid 30 weight oil, if that. (I understand that RL is really a 50 weight oil per Caterham.)

I will change oil in my parents cars 2x/year as Caterham suggests with a value syn and run UOAs.

Originally Posted By: Volvohead
Originally Posted By: Sam_Julier
Why is RL the last oil for a short tripper?


RL is a Group V polyolester (POE) base oil. Polyolesters are more susceptible to degradation and eventual breakdown when exposed to moisture and acids than other base stocks. This is precisely the environment created by short trip driving, before the oil can be brought to full sustained temperature.

RL and other POEs are unmatched for extreme thermal performance. They are outstanding in a turbo application. But you are not running a turbo, so don't need -- or benefit from -- its principal strength.

A NA white block just doesn't utilize the performance that RL provides. And your driving habits play right into its principal weakness. That is why it's my last choice for a NA short-tripper.

And I would NOT put a 5w-20 into a Volvo white block. Too thin. A 5w-30 is the absolute thinnest to use in my opinion. VCNA only recommends it in N. America for fuel economy. A heavier oil than that is overall better in these, IMO.

Stick with a heavier 30w at a minimum. A 5w-40 runs absolutely beautifully in it, and you don't have the turbo spool up compromise that sometimes comes with using it.

If you want to run a 'fancy' oil in a NA white block, T6 is all you need, and it's the best value out there right now among G-III syns.

Otherwise, a strong quality conventional 10w-30 is OK in them, and will get the moisture and acids out more regularly with more frequent changes.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Sam_Julier
Do you feel a weekly 30 minute highway run will eliminate the fuel dilution or not?
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
RL is just expensive.
Since the oil is not getting up to temperature I'd run any cheap on sale 5W-20 dino. I'd change the oil twice per year in January and April or May. The reason is short trips are not as much of a problem in the warmer months when the engine isn't started at below freezing temp's.

A weekly 30 minute drive should get the oil up to temp' at least in the warmer months and would help a lot in the winter. The easy test in the winter is to check under the oil filler cap after a run to see if there is any white creamy emulsified oil. If there isn't then you are driving the car long enough to eliminate the condensation. You may or may not have fuel dilution issue but avoiding noticeable water condensation build-up will of course reduce fuel dilution as well.
If you can avoid much of the water condensation build-up in the winter then an annual oil change in the spring should be fine.

If I haven't convinced you that a 20wt oil would be more than heavy enough for the way this Volvo is being operated (I run a 0W-20 in my BMW in the winter months and it gets driven a lot longer and harder than your parents Volvo) then go with PP 5W-30 which is the lightest OTC 30wt available.

 

[Sam_Julier]

I'm convinced that running 0W-20 is correct and will be making the switch. Thanks as always for your insightful comments.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Sam_Julier
Do you feel a weekly 30 minute highway run will eliminate the fuel dilution or not?
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
RL is just expensive.
Since the oil is not getting up to temperature I'd run any cheap on sale 5W-20 dino. I'd change the oil twice per year in January and April or May. The reason is short trips are not as much of a problem in the warmer months when the engine isn't started at below freezing temp's.

A weekly 30 minute drive should get the oil up to temp' at least in the warmer months and would help a lot in the winter. The easy test in the winter is to check under the oil filler cap after a run to see if there is any white creamy emulsified oil. If there isn't then you are driving the car long enough to eliminate the condensation. You may or may not have fuel dilution issue but avoiding noticeable water condensation build-up will of course reduce fuel dilution as well.
If you can avoid much of the water condensation build-up in the winter then an annual oil change in the spring should be fine.

If I haven't convinced you that a 20wt oil would be more than heavy enough for the way this Volvo is being operated (I run a 0W-20 in my BMW in the winter months and it gets driven a lot longer and harder than your parents Volvo) then go with PP 5W-30 which is the lightest OTC 30wt available.

 

[bigjl]

Interesting to see these debates.

In the UK the car would I suspect be run on any up to spec 5w30 or 0w30.

Though I would need to check I am sure the 2.4 NA V70 runs on fuel economy specs oil in Uk/EU.

Acea spec A1/B1 is the basic specs but most better quality fuel economy oils also meet the more stringent A5/B5 specs.

It is very interesting to read Caterhams comments regarding the use of 20w oils.

NB
Just went and found my owners manual!

The handbook for my V50 includes the V70.

It states Adverse Conditions as Towing, Mountainous Regions, High Speeds, Temps below -30 oC and above +40oC. It also states using only Fully Synthetic oil in adverse conditions.

Interestingly it states that for Europe the 2.4i should use 0w30 A5/B5.

Elsewhere the specs are A3/B3/B4 with a 0w30. However for adverse conditions outside Europe you should use a A5/B5 oil and Full Synth.

Haven't got any links for you to view but A1 is a basic fuel economy oil and A5 is the top spec in EU for engines needing fuel economy oil. With A3 being a spec all other midrange oils meet.

Sorry if my explanation of ACEA specs is over simplified.

But from this I would suggest that using a 0w30 full synth A5/B5 will provide similar economy benefits to using a w20 that meets the A3 spec for non fuel economy oils.

It also offers the question. Why do EU/UK oil specs only get recommended for Severe Service outside of Europe?

And should the US based owners of Volvos in this instance be looking at using A/B5 rather than experimenting with w20 oils to gain advantage from running thinner oil?

Volvo also advise using Castrol only. As do Ford in the UK. Is this just a business partnership or were the engines designed around Castrol oil specs.

One other interesting thing I read is that a V70 with the 2.4 engine has a 18000mile or 1 yr OCI. With severe service the only change is ensure Full Synthetic. This includes T5 and D5 models!

One thing is for sure. There are very few broken Volvo's in the UK. They have a reputation for longevity and reliability. And Volvo and Ford vehicles now make up a large quantity of Police and other Emergency Vehicles in the UK.

In the OP's position I would go for a 0w30 Full Synth like Castrol Edge with A5/ B5 specs. With an annual change.

I will admit to being very interested in Caterham's opinion and he is commenting from a more informed position than I am.

But I thought the info' direct from the UK/EU owners manual would be helpful to the debate.

 

[bigjl]

Oops, got carried away.

I suspect the run out a couple of times a month will Suffice.

Especially when Volvo.in Europe suggest going Full Synth in SS rather than reducing the interval.

But then I run Full Synth and change early!

I do my Volvo three times a year. And do about 25k a year. Mostly Motorway and single carraigeway main roads.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Sam_Julier
I'm convinced that running 0W-20 is correct and will be making the switch.


Of course, it's a European car, so my first instinct is always to look for a 40 grade. But, I suspect you and CATERHAM are right in this instance. With only 5 to 10 minute drives, that oil isn't going to get anywhere near hot.

The only caveat I would add is to watch the oil level like a hawk. My old 1991 Audi allowed 5w-20 in appropriate climate conditions, with a warning that increased oil consumption might result while using such a grade and to be cognizant of that.

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: Sam_Julier
I'm convinced that running 0W-20 is correct and will be making the switch.


Mistake.

 

[bigjl]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Sam_Julier
I'm convinced that running 0W-20 is correct and will be making the switch.


Of course, it's a European car, so my first instinct is always to look for a 40 grade. But, I suspect you and CATERHAM are right in this instance. With only 5 to 10 minute drives, that oil isn't going to get anywhere near hot.

The only caveat I would add is to watch the oil level like a hawk. My old 1991 Audi allowed 5w-20 in appropriate climate conditions, with a warning that increased oil consumption might result while using such a grade and to be cognizant of that.


I am interested to know your reasoning behind thinking a 40 grade oil for European cars?

A very large number run on 5w30 and 0w30, especially Fords over the last 6/7 yrs, I think all Fords b
apart from the Ka and probably the odd high performance one like the Focus RS use these grades.

Volvo seem the same but as they share platforms and engines this is not surprising.

Castrol seems to be the name used all the time when a recommendation of oil make is asked for.

I do wonder if Edge Syntec is equivalent to the UK oil Magnatec and Edge Titanium is equivalent to the UK oil Edge FST though.

I would feel concerned that using a thin oil like a 20 grade would mean the oil was not up to an unexpected high speed run of a few hundred miles that might have to be carried out due to unexpected circumstances.

With appropriate FullSynth 0w30 being what Volvo recommend for all year Severe Service in Europe and beyond why try to out think the manufacturer.

All respect to those that use thinner oils with reasoned and rational thoughts behind the decision. Themaker specs is always going to be a "fits all" spec and sometimes a person useage can justify stepping outside the zone so to speak.

 

[Volvohead]

The white blocks, particularly the older ones, run better on a heavier weight due to the ring pack design. It was revised in '99 to better accommodate the lighter oils, but it's still a 20 year old engine design.

It will run on a 30 weight, and in fact a 30 weight improves turbo spool up. Most dealers in the Northeast are pumping 5w-30 into them (because it's cheap). It won't hurt the engine. But consumption trends up. On the older white blocks before the revision, it goes up a lot.

The big reason people lean towards the lighter weights in these is fuel economy. In a fleet/commercial context, the fuel savings adds up. But on a car driven 1,500 mi/year . . . who cares?

No way, no how, do you run a 20 in a white block. Anyone recommending a 20 just doesn't understand this particular engine. It's not a recommended weight, and no dealer or indy will ever put that into one if given a choice. Any more than you'd pour it into a BMW that needs a 60. Still don't believe me? Check the manuals, call a few dealers, and then ask a couple indys. They'll all start at a 30.

I prefer a 5w-40 in the NA because they are not speed demons to begin with, consumption falls to nil, and the engine is better protected. I still get mileage in the very high 20s. I'll lean towards a very heavy 30 in the turbos (GC for instance), but balance that against spool up.

Castrol is just a cross-marketing plug. You can run a variety of oil brands in these, and they all more or less work well if the spec and weight measure up.

 

[bigjl]

Thanks for the info.

Must admit that I would never run anything but a 0w30 or 5w30 in a Volvo petrol or diesel.

I did note in my manual that the same oil change inyerval and oil spces were shown for the T5 and D5 aswell as the NA 2.4.

Not sure about the 18k intervals.

But then again perhaps the European climate is suitably less harsh to allow it.

Though in the UK anybody doing 18k a year is doing a lot of that on motorway/highway. So perhaps that is the reasoning.

I may use the V50 for work as I lease a Ford Galaxy mpv which costs £150 a week. So peehaps my annual mileage will go up. School run and bits was over 20k a yr. Now Volvo is parked up and 60k a yr going on the leaser.

With 60k a yr worth of data to gain

 

[CATERHAM]

bigjl, thanks for your thoughtful comments.
Yes there is a lot of irrational fear-mongering associated with the practice of running 20wt oil but it is all ignorance based. Many would have no qualms in running a 5W-40 like Shell Helix with a HTHSV of 3.7cP on the track and hitting sump oil temp's of 150C but wouldn't dream of running a 2.6cP 0W/5W-20 on the street when the oil temp's may at most hit 90C. AT that modest but typical oil temp' a light 20wt oil will have a HTHSV of around 7cP. In fact you would need oil temp's of around 130C for the HTHSV to drop to 3.7cP. Consiquently since most maximum oil temp's are under 100C there is still a hugh viscosity safety margin running a 20wt oil.

The main disadvantage of 20wt oil has to to do with increased oil consumption when a lot of high rev's are used such as during high speed driving. That generally is not an issue here in NA consiquently oil consumption with 20wt oil is not appreciably higher than with 30wt oil.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Volvohead
Originally Posted By: Sam_Julier
I'm convinced that running 0W-20 is correct and will be making the switch.


Mistake.


It's definitely not a mistake. In a high-boost turbo engine driven in a moderate climate, it took about 15 minutes for the oil to reach full operating temperature. The NA will take even longer. Given the operating conditions of these cars, the oil will mostly likely never even be that close to a 50W oil. Remember, these things have a big sump. You seem to be completely disregarding the relationship between oil temperature and viscosity.

Regardless of what's printed on the bottle, the oil in his cars is going to spend almost all of its time being "too thick". Just look at the yearly mileage! 0W20 once a year seems like a good bet to me.