Varnish Article

[BrianWC]

Found it!

Same owner, same maintenance routine. First one is a 9-3 and second one is a 9-5. Only difference is PCV system, oil pickup mesh size reduced in #2 pic and oil thermo set to a slightly higher temp.

[image]http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5db05b3127cce919356798dbd00000016109AYtWTNy1aw[/image]

[image]http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6d833b3127cce8a5e4a4bc88300000016109AYtWTNy1aw[/image]

 

[JAG]

badnews, the irony of your post and the quote within it are too funny and not worth more of my time than mentioning it once.

 

[BrianWC]

deleted

 

[BrianWC]

oops

 

[JAG]

Thanks Brian. There's quite the difference in those two pictures.

 

[BrianWC]

Sorry I can't seem to get them to display right. But....yeah. Varnish is some interesting stuff and whatever is causing it in these 9-5s....hmmm.....

 

[JAG]

The huge factor is how quickly the blowby gasses can be pulled out of the sump so they do as little damage to the oil as possible. Blowby gas is pure poison to motor oil from so many of its components. I guess the larger mesh size in the pickup screen is insurance in case chunks do develop in the sump so that it can pass through the mesh more easily.

 

[Merkava_4]

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oops

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You need to get a Photobucket account.

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

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Dino oils couldn't even keep my brother's 05' Corolla engine clean with oil changes every 4k-5k miles. It now has twenty some thousand miles on it. I looked at it last weekend. Varnished dipstick and it has built up black deposits in the oil fill hole (I assume it's oxidized oil with carbon particles in it).

His 1st Gen. Prius engine is quite sludged and varnished up. He bought it used this way.

My mother's 99' BMW 328i is also quite sludged up.

I've seen people's clean engines that used dino oils. I know it CAN keep engines clean. It just doesn't take much to go beyond what dino oils can handle.

Some synthetics were not able to keep my VW 1.8T engine clean during 4k-6k mile OCIs. Tougher job with tougher oils but still not tough enough. Only certain synthetics are able to keep it clean with those OCIs.

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I think the point of the "cheapest oil" doesn't automatically translate to "inferior" when we're talking about non-turbo, lo-pop, mid-horsepower offerings in the econobox sedans and family cars. That would include sub-280HP V-6s, and most non-turbo 4banger DOHC American, Japanese and Korean engines, which together probably comprise 90% of the engines owned by folks here on BITOG, and more than that out on the street.

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Well, after I posted that folks come back with pics of varnished Saab turbos and stories of sludged VWs, and I deliberately left those out. Saabs and VW's are different, for whatever reason. They aren't venting the crankcase or there is a LOT of blowby, or they're very hot and hence, ought to run synthetic. A 2005 Toyota, sludged/varnished in 20k? Something's wrong with the PCV, it has to be. I help a friend with a 2003 with 100K on it replace his cam cover gasket and it was literally new under there, and he takes it to J-Lube every 5K fer cryin out loud. He's religious about it, but 5K is his OCI. I've got 40K on my Accent Hyundai 1.6 and it's like new, dipstick, cams, all that can be seen through the oil fill, half running dino, QS, Pennzoil, Havoline, half running PP. The Saab or VW with sludge? Nothing new. But a 2005 Toyota with varnish and sludge at 20 to 30K has mechanical issues and it ain't from running dino.

Utah Bill, you're a Toyota guy, is 20-30K on a Dino 4-5k OCI schedule cause for sludge and varnish, or is he not venting the crankcase?

 

[JAG]

I have not checked my bro's Corolla PCV valve but I doubt it's bad. The car has done a lot of short trips so fuel and water dilution in the oil are what I suspect have overtaxed his oil in 4k-5k mile OCIs. Bill cannot answer the quesion asked of him because the duty cycle of my bro's Corolla is likely very different from Bill's.

I haven't mentioned my mom's previous car, a Mercury Sable that only ever got dino oil and OCIs somewhere in the 5k mi. ballpark. It too was quite crusty inside the engine when she traded it in with 80k miles. It did a lot of short trips. It was burning oil too.

My coworker's Saturn...Dino oil with 7k-8k mile OCIs and mostly highway miles. At 200k miles, it is quite filthy inside, burning lots of oil, and smoking during startup. He's had to use something like Motor Honey to help with oil consumption.

BTW, tranverse VW 1.8T engines are not sludgemonsters but they are harder on oil than most engines due to high temperatures and tendency toward fuel dilution as is the case with most turbo engines. The longitudinal VW/Audi 1.8T engines are sludgemonsters: they have smaller sumps and an oil line above hot exhaust pipe.

 

[Bill in Utah]

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Dino oils couldn't even keep my brother's 05' Corolla engine clean with oil changes every 4k-5k miles. It now has twenty some thousand miles on it. I looked at it last weekend. Varnished dipstick and it has built up black deposits in the oil fill hole (I assume it's oxidized oil with carbon particles in it).

His 1st Gen. Prius engine is quite sludged and varnished up. He bought it used this way.

My mother's 99' BMW 328i is also quite sludged up.

I've seen people's clean engines that used dino oils. I know it CAN keep engines clean. It just doesn't take much to go beyond what dino oils can handle.

Some synthetics were not able to keep my VW 1.8T engine clean during 4k-6k mile OCIs. Tougher job with tougher oils but still not tough enough. Only certain synthetics are able to keep it clean with those OCIs.

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I think the point of the "cheapest oil" doesn't automatically translate to "inferior" when we're talking about non-turbo, lo-pop, mid-horsepower offerings in the econobox sedans and family cars. That would include sub-280HP V-6s, and most non-turbo 4banger DOHC American, Japanese and Korean engines, which together probably comprise 90% of the engines owned by folks here on BITOG, and more than that out on the street.

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Well, after I posted that folks come back with pics of varnished Saab turbos and stories of sludged VWs, and I deliberately left those out. Saabs and VW's are different, for whatever reason. They aren't venting the crankcase or there is a LOT of blowby, or they're very hot and hence, ought to run synthetic. A 2005 Toyota, sludged/varnished in 20k? Something's wrong with the PCV, it has to be. I help a friend with a 2003 with 100K on it replace his cam cover gasket and it was literally new under there, and he takes it to J-Lube every 5K fer cryin out loud. He's religious about it, but 5K is his OCI. I've got 40K on my Accent Hyundai 1.6 and it's like new, dipstick, cams, all that can be seen through the oil fill, half running dino, QS, Pennzoil, Havoline, half running PP. The Saab or VW with sludge? Nothing new. But a 2005 Toyota with varnish and sludge at 20 to 30K has mechanical issues and it ain't from running dino.

Utah Bill, you're a Toyota guy, is 20-30K on a Dino 4-5k OCI schedule cause for sludge and varnish, or is he not venting the crankcase?

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Interesting... My 05 Corolla has a shiney dipstick and the oil filler is spotless...

I just must be the lucky one.

Here are 3 photos showing both... (the dipstick shows all the sludge from about 1500 miles into this oil change

)

Running everything for 4.5k to 5.8k ocis. Mileage on engine is over 77k.







Also, I logged on at work and viewed the orginal link.

What does Gas turbines have to do with motors that we run in our vehicles?

Whatever.

Take care, bill

 

[JAG]

Yes that is clean. Did you know that engine cleanliness is highly duty cycle dependent?

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Also, I logged on at work and viewed the orginal link.

What does Gas turbines have to do with motors that we run in our vehicles?

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You being confused about that isn't a surprise. I don't think there is a scientific bone in your body.

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Whatever.

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Ditto. BTW, I thought I was on your Ignore User list and that made my posts invisible to you. I guess not.

 

[mdocod]

If an oil[by this I mean synthetic] can keep a high performance high heat or sludge prone engine clean, and another oil [a non synthetic oil] would break down quickly and leave behind deposits in those engines.

Then why in a normal engine, would the dino be ON-PAR performance wise with the synthetic, if it has been proven different(under-performing) by the high-hp/heat/etc engine?

Why could the advantages that the high performance engines gets out of the synthetic not be found AT ANY AMOUNT in a normal performance engine?

I've yet to see a "normal" engine ran with short OCIs on dino that looked clean inside after 100,000 miles.

 

[VeeDubb]

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I think the point of the "cheapest oil" doesn't automatically translate to "inferior" when we're talking about non-turbo, lo-pop, mid-horsepower offerings in the econobox sedans and family cars. That would include sub-280HP V-6s, and most non-turbo 4banger DOHC American, Japanese and Korean engines, which together probably comprise 90% of the engines owned by folks here on BITOG, and more than that out on the street. .......

To imply that "cheap oil" is no good, and only the "names" at twice and thrice the price are any good smacks of know-nothingness. Especially when the advocates of such theories ignore the body of evidence that exists here in such abundance, yes, some of it provided by good old, cheapskate Utah Bill.

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Strong statements. But IMO, I think of high quality oil as insurance not a normal commodity. If we treat insurance as a normal commodity, then under "normal" circumstances, 90% of people don't need car or health insurance either so insurance would be a waste of money. However, when one of those low probability but catastrophic events occur, you are up shyte creek if you don't have it.

Same with good synthetics. For average Joe, in 95% of cases, it probably has no benefits. But if you are unfortunate enough to buy a new car with a new engine that is hard on oil but has little history to show taht it is, then you are SOL if you use a regular dino. This is exactly the situation I was in when I bought my Passat 1.8T in 02. The engine had very little history at the time, but I ran synthetics even though my dealer told me it was overkill. Guess what, half his customers who listened to him are now #@$%! with him. My engine is still going hard and strong.
And Toyotas aren't immune. What about all the poor saps who had Toyota V6's in the late 90's early 2000s? Think synthetics wouldn't have insured them?

 

[BrianWC]

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If an oil[by this I mean synthetic] can keep a high performance high heat or sludge prone engine clean, and another oil [a non synthetic oil] would break down quickly and leave behind deposits in those engines.

Then why in a normal engine, would the dino be ON-PAR performance wise with the synthetic, if it has been proven different(under-performing) by the high-hp/heat/etc engine?

Why could the advantages that the high performance engines gets out of the synthetic not be found AT ANY AMOUNT in a normal performance engine?

I've yet to see a "normal" engine ran with short OCIs on dino that looked clean inside after 100,000 miles.

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Yes, I believe you've got my point spot on. VW's and SAABs are highly relevant to the discussion because the conditions their engines present are an exacerbation of normal engine conditions and CAN possibly be used to infer relative oil quality for any engine.


Or I could be completely wrong and it could be more similar a situation to when they feed lab mice 18 gallons of saccharine to prove that it COULD cause bladder cancer.

 

[SargeGTO]

I just spit my saccharine laced iced tea all over my screen.

 

[BrianWC]

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I just spit my saccharine laced iced tea all over my screen.

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I think you're safe if you don't live in California.

 

[oilyriser]

Is 93,000 miles close enough?

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I've yet to see a "normal" engine ran with short OCIs on dino that looked clean inside after 100,000 miles.

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[ewetho]

Did not take pictures but my new used Focus with a Zetec motor was as clean as the above picture with 127K on it and the previous owner still had a FRAM on it (the wrong one too, the one on it was the cross for the FL400 not the FL2005).

The engine was spotless and the trans fluid was Black go figure!

Now all is well.

 

[4esorselrahc]

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Is 93,000 miles close enough?

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I've yet to see a "normal" engine ran with short OCIs on dino that looked clean inside after 100,000 miles.

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Purdy!