Valvoline Restore & Protect

[OVERKILL]

If new VRP users are finding deposit removal in their engines previously running 4K to 5K mile OCI’s with name brand synthetic oils and their PCV valve is in good working order - then perhaps a 3K mile OCI is in order ?

Given that the lighter fractions are what burn off first and that the additive package being overwhelmed is likely not the reason for the deposits (the oils have no solvency) super short OCI's may in fact be worse.

The pictures we see of Sequence IIIH ring lands with visible deposits, those deposits aren't there because the oil was run too long and the additive package was overwhelmed. They are there because that's what happens when that oil enters that area and has to find its way back out through the oil return holes while being exposed to insanely high temperatures.

Sequence IIIH is only 90 hours:
Sequence IIIH Engine Test (swri.org)

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

That's because oils aren't designed to clean, they are designed to keep things clean, a small, but important distinction. Because some deposits are inevitable (the API mandates a limit on deposits, not the avoidance of) a produce that IS designed to actually clean, will expectedly liberate some of those accumulated deposits, like you've observed, and like many of us have observed with HPL.

Has anyone come up with a conclusion about the use/replacement frequency of the oil filters when using these oils such as Valvoline R&P or regular HPL yet? I have been using HPL with short oci and have used their oils only and none of the special cleaners. My experience has been the HPL PPCMOs I have been running seemed to have cleaned some on their own. With these GDI-T engines it is simply not a surprise to see some quick color change to the dark side (as turbos are famous for this). What has been a pleasant surprise is that running short ocis I have seen the oil on the dip stick slowly stay cleaner longer. I do in fact replace the filters each time. I have wondered with a product like Valvoline R&P is there any offered advice as to how to handle the use/swap out of the oil filters when running any Valvoline R&P oils. Just wondering if it is as efficient as they claim it to be it would seem for safety sake one would possibly need to replace filters a bit more often.

 

[OVERKILL]

Has anyone come up with a conclusion about the use/replacement frequency of the oil filters when using these oils such as Valvoline R&P or regular HPL yet? I have been using HPL with short oci and have used their oils only and none of the special cleaners. My experience has been the HPL PPCMOs I have been running seemed to have cleaned some on their own. With these GDI-T engines it is simply not a surprise to see some quick color change to the dark side (as turbos are famous for this). What has been a pleasant surprise is that running short ocis I have seen the oil on the dip stick slowly stay cleaner longer. I do infact replace the filters each time. I have wondered with a product like Valvoline R&P is there any offered advice as to how to handle the use/swap out of the oil filters when running any Valvoline R&P oils. Just wondering if it is as efficient as they claim it to be it would seem for safety sake one would possibly need to replace filters a bit more often.

I would think you'd approach it with the same level of caution as with HPL.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The pictures we see of Sequence IIIH ring lands with visible deposits, those deposits aren't there because the oil was run too long and the additive package was overwhelmed. They are there because that's what happens when that oil enters that area and has to find its way back out through the oil return holes while being exposed to insanely high temperatures.

I would think that low Noack oils would leave less deposits in the ring pack area then higher Noack oils. The ring area exposes oil to the highest temperatures.

To add, it's possible that an engine could be visibly clean of deposits, except for the ring pack area depending on the oil used and its Noack volatility. Can't see ring pack deposits without tearing the engine down. Excessive oil burning is a sign of stuck rings due to deposits.

 

[BlakeB]

I might try a run or two of VRP in a 2010 Tacoma that has some pretty heavy varnish. It has had an annual OC with M1 EP or M1 EP HM for the majority of its life. It only has 62k miles but it gets short tripped a lot (often a mile or less) and idles a fair amount. It burns no oil and runs great, but it does have some noticeable deposits through the oil fill tube. The front cover has darker deposits than what’s visible in the picture, but I couldn’t get a picture of it through the fill hole with my phone. I’m at 3 months/1,500 miles on the current fill of 5w30 M1 EP HM. I should probably be doing an oil change every 6 months, but I’m not sure it would do much for engine cleanliness. I think it’s just hard to keep them clean if you short trip them a lot. Thoughts?

 

[wlk]

I might try a run or two of VRP in a 2010 Tacoma that has some pretty heavy varnish. It has had an annual OC with M1 EP or M1 EP HM for the majority of its life. It only has 62k miles but it gets short tripped a lot (often a mile or less) and idles a fair amount. It burns no oil and runs great, but it does have some noticeable deposits through the oil fill tube. The front cover has darker deposits than what’s visible in the picture, but I couldn’t get a picture of it through the fill hole with my phone. I’m at 3 months/1,500 miles on the current fill of 5w30 M1 EP HM. I should probably be doing an oil change every 6 months, but I’m not sure it would do much for engine cleanliness. I think it’s just hard to keep them clean if you short trip them a lot. Thoughts? View attachment 234415

That's ugly for 62k. The taco my kid had was spotless at 180k. You would probably benefit from several runs or continued use of R&P

 

[Daytona]

This is for M278? I'm just not very picky for that engine.


Even my M276s I just throw whatever oil at them. I buy WAY in advance for my seven cars at discount , and fit the stocked oil to the engine/climate as I go.

For my new M274 I use Pennzoil Euro L, MB 229.51 which might be the ticket for newer engines....

I meant to say M272 not M278, although they are the same engine + turbos. Just in case someone is referencing my improper service methods. All of these engines are happiest on 15w-40 in the warm. None burn oil anyway, I was replying to a direct question.

VRP should be a boon for VW/Audi 2.0T EA888, that's what I am researching, but don't see any members trying it as yet.

 

[buster]

I would think that low Noack oils would leave less deposits in the ring pack area then higher Noack oils. The ring area exposes oil to the highest temperatures.

To add, it's possible that an engine could be visibly clean of deposits, except for the ring pack area depending on the oil used and its Noack volatility. Can't see ring pack deposits without tearing the engine down. Excessive oil burning is a sign of stuck rings due to deposits.

This. For the longest time I was fixated on just seeing how good the engine looked overall, minus the pistons (ignoring the most important part). Then people started running HPL and showing carbon in filters which really surprised me. Oils with more solvency built in will naturally dissolve contaminants with the detergent/dispersant package keeping them in suspension. The more expensive oils tend to use the more expensive base oils that offer solvency (POEs/ANs) vs the off-shelf preventative/dry approach. Valvoline R&P is now an exception to this with their newfound discovery.

Valvoline Premium Blue Restore consisted of 62.5% POE. Not the most aggressive POE either, which is why the upped the treat rate that high. Safer on elastomers.

Formula #4 is what is sold commercially.

Priolube™ 1973: an 8.00 cSt POE by Croda
Synesstic™ 12: a 12.4 cSt AN by ExxonMobil
D3495L: a detergent–dispersant–inhibitor (DDI) package by Infineum
PX-3871: a mixed alkyl borate ester additive for dispersancy, antiwear, and friction modification (antifriction) by Dorf Ketal

 

[JohnnyG]

I meant to say M272 not M278, although they are the same engine + turbos. Just in case someone is referencing my improper service methods. All of these engines are happiest on 15w-40 in the warm. None burn oil anyway, I was replying to a direct question.

VRP should be a boon for VW/Audi 2.0T EA888, that's what I am researching, but don't see any members trying it as yet.

My 2018 in my sig is the M274, ( 4 cyl Turbo) and 229.51 is not listed for use in it, just 229.5 and 229.6.
Lots of short trips on this one, so it can get a little bit of fuel smell in the oil. Not too bad though.

I used to have the M276 V6 in my 2014, also spec'd to use 229.5. I used Pennzoil GTL 5W-40 in that one, but have not seen it for sale lately. At WalMart at least.

 

[twX]

The pictures we see of Sequence IIIH ring lands with visible deposits, those deposits aren't there because the oil was run too long and the additive package was overwhelmed. They are there because that's what happens when that oil enters that area and has to find its way back out through the oil return holes while being exposed to insanely high temperatures.

Sequence IIIH is only 90 hours:
Sequence IIIH Engine Test (swri.org)

90 hours may not seem very long, but the Sequence IIIH test is very severe. It operates the engine at close to full load, at 3900 rpm, with 151°C oil temperature. That's equivalent to driving at over 100 mph with extreme oil temperature for 10,000 miles.

The oil's viscosity can nearly double from oxidative thickening and still get a passing grade, and most of this happens near the end of the test. These conditions also encourage phosphorus loss from volatility, and probably boron loss as well (which is often used to prevent piston deposits).

The additive package could be in really bad shape at the end of the test, and I'd assume that this is a major factor for deposit formation.

 

[buster]

90 hours may not seem very long, but the Sequence IIIH test is very severe. It operates the engine at close to full load, at 3900 rpm, with 151°C oil temperature. That's equivalent to driving at over 100 mph with extreme oil temperature for 10,000 miles.

The oil's viscosity can nearly double from oxidative thickening and still get a passing grade, and most of this happens near the end of the test. These conditions also encourage phosphorus loss from volatility, and probably boron loss as well (which is often used to prevent piston deposits).

The additive package could be in really bad shape at the end of the test, and I'd assume that this is a major factor for deposit formation.

When Amsoil published this I became a fan of this particular era of Amsoil SS.

FWIW, Mobil 1 does exceptionally well on this test too.

AMSOIL Crushes Sequence IIIH Engine Test - AMSOIL Blog

The Sequence IIIH Test is designed to screen oils for their ability to protect modern, hot-running engines. Even after doubling the test, AMSOIL delivered.

blog.amsoil.com

 

[BlakeB]

That's ugly for 62k. The taco my kid had was spotless at 180k. You would probably benefit from several runs or continued use of R&P

I’m thinking I’ll try it, if VRP cleans the it up to a substantial degree then I’ll probably just keep using it. I was looking the other night, VRP actually has a higher HTHS than the 5w30 M1EP that I’ve been using. VRP 5w30 has a HTHS of 3.24, M1EP 5w30 (SP) is 3.13, and M1 EP HM 5w30 (SP) is 3.10.

Note that ILSAC GF-X(A) XW-30 oils (Resource Conserving XW-30 oils) will have HTHS = 3.0–3.2 cP to be able to pass the ILSAC fuel-efficiency test (2.9 cP is also allowed). In addition to looking at the HTFS, ensure that you have a high HTFS. For an ideal monograde (straight grade, nonmultigrade), HTFS = HTHS. The more the VII content, the more HTFS will deviate from HTHS due to the temporary shear of the VII.

Link to Google sheet: Estimated base-oil viscosity (HTFS) and VII content of selected oils

 

[OVERKILL]

90 hours may not seem very long, but the Sequence IIIH test is very severe. It operates the engine at close to full load, at 3900 rpm, with 151°C oil temperature. That's equivalent to driving at over 100 mph with extreme oil temperature for 10,000 miles.

The oil's viscosity can nearly double from oxidative thickening and still get a passing grade, and most of this happens near the end of the test. These conditions also encourage phosphorus loss from volatility, and probably boron loss as well (which is often used to prevent piston deposits).

The additive package could be in really bad shape at the end of the test, and I'd assume that this is a major factor for deposit formation.

As @buster noted, AMSOIL runs the test at twice the API required length.

It's also the equivalent (duration-wise) of driving at 33mph for 3,000 miles, or in stop-n-go bumper to bumper highway with an average speed of 15mph for 1,350 miles, which can achieve similar oil temperatures (minus the load). The test engine is a port-injected Pentastar setup to produce 137hp from an engine which is 300 or 305bhp, so that's 45-46% of full power (obtained at 6,350-6,400RPM) or 69% of the ~200HP it produces at 3,900RPM.

The test is designed to tax the oil, obviously, but it's also able to be passed by the cheapest possible API SP lubricant. The fact that AMSOIL can run it for twice the duration and still get pistons that are 40% cleaner than is required to pass and they don't have considerably higher levels of detergents or dispersants than your other OTS oils means the bar presented by this test really isn't THAT high.

 

[Glenda W.]

The fact that AMSOIL can run it for twice the duration and still get pistons that are 40% cleaner than is required to pass and they don't have considerably higher levels of detergents or dispersants than your other OTS oils means the bar presented by this test really isn't THAT high.

Could base oils come into play? I had always assumed more group 4/5 helped.

 

[OVERKILL]

Could base oils come into play? I had always assumed more group 4/5 helped.

Absolutely they do. The higher quality base oils don't oxidize or breakdown as quickly.

Market standard oils aren't designed to clean. They are formulated and additized to keep deposit formation to an acceptable level, not prevent them completely. That's why there's a limit as to the volume of deposits accumulated during this test, not simply a blanket requirement for no deposits.

The API testing is the lowest bar; the minimum requirement. Dexos is above and beyond that, as are other OEM approvals. Dollar General oil is API SP, probably produced by Warren or some other bulk provider for the lowest possible cost. It passes this test.

VRP's ability to remove deposits from this area underscores the distinction between your bog standard oil being designed to produce minimal deposits and a product actually being able to remove them (which HPL's oils do as well).

 

[twX]

It's also the equivalent (duration-wise) of driving at 33mph for 3,000 miles, or in stop-n-go bumper to bumper highway with an average speed of 15mph for 1,350 miles, which can achieve similar oil temperatures (minus the load).

Oxidation rates will double for every 10°C increase in oil temperature. A car in stop and go traffic might typically have oil temperatures of 90-120°C in the sump, and the oil at the pistons might be over 50°C cooler as well since the oil temperature here is highly dependent on engine load and rpm. The oil in the IIIH test may be oxidizing 30 times faster compared to this example.

The Amsoil thickens by 50% in 180 hours in the IIIH test, which is something that might typically happen after over 30k miles of field service with this oil, not 6k. The IIIH test at 90 hours is pretty severe in terms of oxidation compared to normal field service on a normal OCI. Oil oxidation is directly related to piston deposits, so you'd expect piston deposit formation to accelerate towards the end of a long OCI.

 

[Daytona]

My 2018 in my sig is the M274, ( 4 cyl Turbo) and 229.51 is not listed for use in it, just 229.5 and 229.6.
Lots of short trips on this one, so it can get a little bit of fuel smell in the oil. Not too bad though.

I used to have the M276 V6 in my 2014, also spec'd to use 229.5. I used Pennzoil GTL 5W-40 in that one, but have not seen it for sale lately. At WalMart at least.

I saw that 229.51 wasn't listed there for 274, but it's the reduced ash version of 229.5, so no problem (for me) Someone can look up the interchange details, but .51 is clearly a continuation of 229.5

Now I'm curious if not M274, which engines it's speced for.

Pennzoil Platinum Euro L Full Synthetic 5W-30 Motor Oil, 5 Quart - Walmart.com

Buy Pennzoil Platinum Euro L Full Synthetic 5W-30 Motor Oil, 5 Quart at Walmart.com

www.walmart.com

When you look on the jug at associated specs in the C3 family, it's a bunch of commonplace gas oils with HT/HS >3.5cP like VW 504 and WalMart says now 502 as well....

Anyway, you asked what I thought was best. With current ultra low sulphur gas, it or 504 would be the way to go.

 

[JohnnyG]

Now I'm curious if not M274, which engines it's speced for.

Not 100% sure, but since it's low ash, I'd say anything that has an exhaust filter (DPF/GPF). In Europe, they even put filters on the M274 even though they are gasoline injected.
As far as intake valve deposits go, I'm not too worried about the M274 since Mercedes went through extra effort to keep those to a minimum. I learned yesterday that this engine actually has two oil separators in the PCV system. Of course, using the wrong oil can cause those to plug, so a high NOAK number.

 

[Daytona]

I have a new M274 still on it's factory oil. Not changing it until 10k, it's a 12 quart capacity! I have jugs of Valvoline XL-III and PZ Euro L for it. It's a matter of safe>sorry.

 

[sycamore]

I meant to say M272 not M278, although they are the same engine + turbos. Just in case someone is referencing my improper service methods. All of these engines are happiest on 15w-40 in the warm. None burn oil anyway, I was replying to a direct question.

VRP should be a boon for VW/Audi 2.0T EA888, that's what I am researching, but don't see any members trying it as yet.

I’m running VRP in my 1.8 TSI (EA888 gen3), and my engine seems to be loving it so far based on my very scientific “gee, the car sure does sound quieter now.” I plan on getting a UOA at the end of this oil change interval and posting to the forum.

Granted, I believe the gen2 is the one with oil consumption issues from carboned-up rings rather than my gen3, but thought I might throw my single data point in when you mentioned the EA888.