I wonder if Mobil 1 5w30 ESP would be good since it falls on the higher end of viscosity for a 5w30?
Toyota 2ZZ-GE intake cam wear - bad oil or bad filter?
- Thread starter ProbeGT
- Start date
- Status
Depends on the area I guess. But in my area it is very hard to find any of the Mobil 1 ESP offerings. Possible, but very hard. While Mobil1 0W40 FS is at every Auto Parts store and every Wal-Mart. Falls on the lower end of 40-grade, and becomes a "thick" 30-grade pretty quick. Stays at 30 for a long time though, which is why it's a good option for those who go with extended OCIs. But that's a story for another thread.
I'll go ahead an say that Mobil 1 0W40 FS is the highest performing widely available motor oil. Any of the oils that are "better" usually spend couple days in shipping, due to being boutique oils. Yet M1 0W40 is on most store shelves, as mentioned earlier.
SHO V8 had flaws too, but I don't know if that was Ford or Yamaha. Millennials with Solidworks and very little basic
engineering experience
Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2022
- Messages
- 5
Toyota motor oil supposedly has more zinc additives than other brands.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
No it doesn't. Some of their oils have a bit more traditional (dimer) moly, but their phosphorous levels (which is what is the AW additive in ZDDP) are in-line with the API norms, and they have to be for the oils to be API approved.
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2022
- Messages
- 5
According to this video it has more zinc than Pennzoil,amsoil, and mobil 1. Is it that much more? Prob not...but it does have more.
And yes I know it is kind of an obscure YouTube video but I see no reason for this guy to lie about his oil analysis results. I'll prob do an oil analysis in future just to compare results. I'm sure there already verified published lab tests out there though.
And yes I know it is kind of an obscure YouTube video but I see no reason for this guy to lie about his oil analysis results. I'll prob do an oil analysis in future just to compare results. I'm sure there already verified published lab tests out there though.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Again, it's NOT the Zinc that you want, it's the Phosphorous, the Zinc is just the "partner" for the phosphorous, which is what provides the AW function.
There was a VOA posted of TGMO 0W-16 (the oil in the video):
TGMO VOA 0W16 API SP GF6
Toyota Genuine Motor Oil (TGMO) 0W16 API SP, Date of Manufacture is Oct 2020 I previously posted a UOA on a factory fill with 46 miles on it. Thought it would be interesting to contribute to the form by posting a VOA of TGMO 0W16 API SP so it could be compared to the factory fill. Your...
bobistheoilguy.com
Phosphorous was at 757ppm; ~750-760ppm nominal. Mobil lists 760ppm nominal for their AFE 0W-16, while their high mileage 0W-20 oil is 800ppm and their ESP X2 0W-20 is 880ppm.
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2022
- Messages
- 5
What the heck is the zinc for then? Now I'm curious about Yamaha oil. They do make a Marine 4 stroke oil.
Yes they make 4 Stroke oil and if you Google it you will get a bunch of replys!
The anti-wear compound is ZDDP. It contains both elements, zinc and phosphorus. Can't have one without the other.
Oil brand is totally irrelevant when it comes to ZDDP content in API certified xW-30 and xW-20 oils. They're all restricted to an ever decreasing arbitrary level, now around 720ppm for API SP. This is far too low to provide adequate lubrication in high stress areas of some high performance engines, as shown in my original post and as explained in the ZDDP wikipedia entry.
ZDDP limits do not apply to xW-40 oils nor specialty racing oils. Somehow the API wants us to believe that ZDDP is harmful in 5W-30 but not in 5W-40? Pure idiocy.
Valvoline VR1 contains 1400ppm. Rotella T6 is at 1150ppm. These are the only two oils in my stash I consider worthy of the 2ZZ-GE. Not yet sure what I will do with the rest of my oil stash...~130 quarts of mostly Pennzoil, Mobil, Castrol.
I don't believe this to be an oil issue at all.
If it was then there would be similar wear on the exhaust cam. Ignore the fact it's 'lower' and gravity may make it more oily, that's speculation at best. It's the same set-up and same device doing nigh on the same job in the same environment.
This was down to nothing other than incorrect valve clearances. I'd be asking myself why have those clearances tightened up so much. Do you have valve seat erosion maybe?
It's my understanding modern oils have additives not picked up on a cheap UOA that combat the wear issue where phosphorous levels have been lowered.
If it was then there would be similar wear on the exhaust cam. Ignore the fact it's 'lower' and gravity may make it more oily, that's speculation at best. It's the same set-up and same device doing nigh on the same job in the same environment.
This was down to nothing other than incorrect valve clearances. I'd be asking myself why have those clearances tightened up so much. Do you have valve seat erosion maybe?
It's my understanding modern oils have additives not picked up on a cheap UOA that combat the wear issue where phosphorous levels have been lowered.
You'd be correct, its not.
Yup. Unless metal is magically being added somehow to the rockers and valve stem tips, the only way you're going to get valve clearances getting tighter is if the valve stem is stretching, or the valve face and/or valve seat is eroding. How else would the clearance tighten up?
Looking for an oil to solve is this problem is looking totally in the wrong place. This isnt an oil problem, its not a rocker issue, and its not a cam problem. Its a valve and valve seat issue.
Perhaps it's because the market for 40w oils is completely different and shrinking.The anti-wear compound is ZDDP. It contains both elements, zinc and phosphorus. Can't have one without the other.
Oil brand is totally irrelevant when it comes to ZDDP content in API certified xW-30 and xW-20 oils. They're all restricted to an ever decreasing arbitrary level, now around 720ppm for API SP. This is far too low to provide adequate lubrication in high stress areas of some high performance engines, as shown in my original post and as explained in the ZDDP wikipedia entry.
ZDDP limits do not apply to xW-40 oils nor specialty racing oils. Somehow the API wants us to believe that ZDDP is harmful in 5W-30 but not in 5W-40? Pure idiocy.
Valvoline VR1 contains 1400ppm. Rotella T6 is at 1150ppm. These are the only two oils in my stash I consider worthy of the 2ZZ-GE. Not yet sure what I will do with the rest of my oil stash...~130 quarts of mostly Pennzoil, Mobil, Castrol.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
ZDDP isn't limited directly, phosphorous is limited and for API SP/ILSAC GF-6A/6B, it's the same limit it has been since API SM, and that's a phosphorous percentage range of 0.06%-0.08%. Ergo, the whole compound gets limited but they don't care about the zinc, it's the phosphorous.
Or xW-50's or xW-60's. The limits are only applicable to xW-30 and below, the "thin" oils that are more likely to be consumed.
It's absolutely an oiling issue, beyond any reasonable doubt. I did extensive research on this. I held the camshafts, rockers and slipper pads in my hands. I did all the repairs.
The intake and exhaust cams are NOT equal. Intake cam has much tighter clearances (per specs) and thus is subject to higher spring pressures, higher boundary layer pressures and higher shear forces. I've documented the valve clearance specs with screenshots of the service manual in post #38. One member was shocked at how tight the specs are, even compared to other high performance engines.
All 4 cam lobes and slipper pads were equally wiped on intake side, regardless of the measured valve clearances on the respective cylinder, which did vary greatly. If the clearances were at fault, I would see more severe wear on the cylinders that were far out-of-spec, but no.
Some manufacturers claim they have magic mixes of anti-wear additives, but what anti-wear additive is on par with ZDDP? Apparently, none:
- New cars come with high ZDDP oil from the factory
- Racing oils contain high levels of ZDDP
- The entire community of flat-tappet engine owners/rebuilders swear by ZDDP to prevent wiped camshafts.
Would my intake camshaft be in perfect shape had the engine always had high ZDDP oil in it? Who knows. Would it show less wear? Definitely.
BTW, the car is a daily driver again and runs great with the new intake camshaft. That said, I find myself engaging "LIFT" far less often than I used to and when I do, I feel guilty (for a few minutes, anyway).
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2022
- Messages
- 5
I mean you did have 130,000 miles on it already. Don't most high performances engines (BMW) **** the bed at like 70k? Lol. I don't think this was a gradual wear issue. Seems like it happened overnight. I have a vintage car and peruse the forums. They say you have to at least put high zinc oil in after a rebuild until the engine breaks in. So after a cam swap for example.
That makes sense to me - its either materials, lubrication or appropriate anti-scuff doping - or a combination of all three.
Tighter clearances should not be an issue, loose clearances where you are missing the cam ramp can be a problem. A few thou isn't going to vary over the nose loading that much. At high rpm it's more of a dynamic issue - one of accelerating VT mass. Usually that isn't too much of an issue with 4V heads as the valves are much lower mass, but 8K redline require much higher spring pressure.
Then you can also add some valve floatto boot which can really hammer the lobes.
Regardless of materials, Its not surprising that a
"race cam" profile is showing wear at high hours
Remember that zddp is used up in service** so pushing the OCI on this instance is not good.
______________
** it may appear mostly present near VOA ppm in a UOA, but its been applied then sloughed off and is non functional.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2014
- Messages
- 4,118
OCI has already been mentioned. I wouldn't go past 5k on any of my Toyota's. Worked on too many and see the issues caused by longer intervals. Hope your commute is all highway. I also recommend full synthetic media filters. BTW, I see an overly tight valve clearance as a wear producing event. Wear can be controlled by better oils until you correct the issue. Your overly tight clearance becomes your 1 arm bandit that so many hate. I won't argue what caused it, or what could prevent it, or the Z/P/S/Mo/B AW additive preferences. But, when there is an issue, always attack it from all angles.
I'd wager many have tighter valve clearances than some want to admit. Plenty of 'burnt exhaust' valves with some GDI T engines that I've seen. Checking valve clearance just isn't part of normal maintenance unless you have an exotic. Well, this engine is an exotic! I'd recommend checking it again in 30k miles and see what happens over the next 120k.
For your stash of oil, all you need is a pint or quart of race oil, per sump to spike the AW additives. This way, you can use all your oil that you have. Otherwise, you have to ship all that stash of new oil to me and I will 'recycle' it for you. Use the 40 or 50 grade equivalent if you want to spike your viscosity too. Unless you use aftermarket PSI/temp gauges, I probably wouldn't go super power degrading overly thick on the oil.
www.mobil.com
www.royalpurple.com
torcousa.com
One your stash of filters is gone, use a full synthetic media filter, with silicone ADBV, and as big a filter as possible that will fit. I believe 4386/4967 filters were used on the same engine family, but the higher rpm ones used the longer filter. I guess Toyota appreciates the bigger filter, more media,... on their higher RPM exotic engines. I'd give the XG3614 or XG3600 filter a trial fit. If it fits, just prefill it prior to usage,as should be done with all filter replacements. Wix XP, Napa Platinum, Purolator Boss....are usually better priced than the Amsoil/Royalpurple filter equivalents.
So..... thicker oil, more AW additives, bigger full synthetic media filters, shorter oil change intervals, and more 'inspections', are what I vote for.
I'd wager many have tighter valve clearances than some want to admit. Plenty of 'burnt exhaust' valves with some GDI T engines that I've seen. Checking valve clearance just isn't part of normal maintenance unless you have an exotic. Well, this engine is an exotic! I'd recommend checking it again in 30k miles and see what happens over the next 120k.
For your stash of oil, all you need is a pint or quart of race oil, per sump to spike the AW additives. This way, you can use all your oil that you have. Otherwise, you have to ship all that stash of new oil to me and I will 'recycle' it for you. Use the 40 or 50 grade equivalent if you want to spike your viscosity too. Unless you use aftermarket PSI/temp gauges, I probably wouldn't go super power degrading overly thick on the oil.
Mobil 1 Racing™ 0W-30 | Mobil™ Motor Oils
Mobil 1 Racing™ 0W-30 is for racing engines. Its high-performance, full synthetic formula is specially balanced for friction reduction and optimum horsepower with outstanding wear protection.
www.mobil.com
XPR® | Royal Purple
Royal Purple® XPR® (Extreme Performance Racing) oils are recommended for use in various racing applications, and are popular in a variety of motorsports
www.royalpurple.com
Torco SR-5R Synthetic Racing Oil
Torco SR-5R racing oil was developed for severe racing conditions and offers the highest level of performance and protection for highly modified race engines.
torcousa.com
One your stash of filters is gone, use a full synthetic media filter, with silicone ADBV, and as big a filter as possible that will fit. I believe 4386/4967 filters were used on the same engine family, but the higher rpm ones used the longer filter. I guess Toyota appreciates the bigger filter, more media,... on their higher RPM exotic engines. I'd give the XG3614 or XG3600 filter a trial fit. If it fits, just prefill it prior to usage,as should be done with all filter replacements. Wix XP, Napa Platinum, Purolator Boss....are usually better priced than the Amsoil/Royalpurple filter equivalents.
So..... thicker oil, more AW additives, bigger full synthetic media filters, shorter oil change intervals, and more 'inspections', are what I vote for.
- Status
Similar threads
